Walk with Owen Wiseman: Nature, Health, and the Systems We Live In
Episode Summary: What if nature isn't simply beneficial to human health—but foundational to it?
In this conversation, Susan sits down with naturopathic doctor and NatureQuant advisor Dr. Owen Wiseman to explore the growing evidence connecting nature exposure to better health outcomes, stronger communities, and more resilient systems. Together, they examine what happens when people become disconnected from the natural world and why nature may be one of the most overlooked forms of public health infrastructure available to us.
Episode Description
Modern life is increasingly lived indoors, surrounded by built and artificial environments that shape how we work, learn, heal, and connect. Yet many of the systems we depend on—from healthcare and education to urban design and economic development—often overlook one of the most powerful influences on human wellbeing: nature.
In this conversation, Susan sits down with Dr. Owen Wiseman, a naturopathic doctor and advisor to NatureQuant, to explore the growing body of evidence linking nature exposure to improved physical health, mental wellbeing, sleep, resilience, and quality of life.
Together, they discuss nature prescriptions, the role of preventive healthcare, and how access to green space influences communities at both individual and societal levels. Owen introduces concepts such as shifting baseline syndrome and environmental generational amnesia, offering a framework for understanding how each generation may gradually accept increasing disconnection from the natural world as normal.
The conversation also explores a compelling idea: nature is not simply something we visit. It may be foundational infrastructure that supports healthier people, stronger communities, more effective schools, better workplaces, and more resilient healthcare systems.
If we are nature, what happens when we design our lives as though we are separate from it?
Key Themes
Nature as foundational infrastructure for wellbeing
Nature prescriptions and preventive healthcare
Environmental generational amnesia
Shifting baseline syndrome
Urban planning and public health
NatureQuant and measuring nature exposure
Accessibility and everyday nature connection
Remembering that we are nature
Key Takeaways
Nature supports physical, mental, and emotional health in measurable ways.
Access to nature influences outcomes across healthcare, education, workplaces, and communities.
Environmental generational amnesia can make it difficult to recognize what has been lost.
Nature prescriptions are becoming a legitimate tool within healthcare systems.
Small, consistent interactions with nature can have meaningful health benefits.
Investing in nature creates returns that extend far beyond recreation.
"If nature truly functions as infrastructure for human wellbeing, perhaps the question is no longer whether we can afford to invest in it—but whether we can afford not to."
Reflection Prompt
What aspects of your relationship with nature have become so familiar—or so absent—that you've stopped noticing them?
Connect with Guest
Dr. Owen Wiseman is a naturopathic doctor, educator, and advocate for integrating nature into healthcare and public health systems. His work bridges clinical practice, nature-based wellbeing, and emerging research on how environmental conditions influence human health.
Website: https://www.owenwiseman.com
NatureQuant: https://naturequant.com
LinkedIn: Dr. Owen Wiseman
Resources Mentioned
PaRX – Canada's Nature Prescription Program
Shifting Baseline Syndrome
Environmental Generational Amnesia
Richard Louv and Nature Deficit Disorder
Prefer to read? The full transcript is below.
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Susan:
All right. Well, hello, Dr. Owen Wiseman. It's great to see you today.
Owen:
Hello, Susan Bailey. Great to see you too.
Susan:
Do you like to be called Owen or Dr. Wiseman?
Owen:
Let's use Owen and keep it simple.
Susan:
But how awesome is it that your last name is Wiseman?
Owen:
It very much depends on the day. If I wake up on the right side of the bed, I'll take it. Other days, not feeling so wise.
Susan:
That's fair because curiosity and not assuming we have it all figured out is a great way to play the game.
That's part of the reason I do this podcast—never-ending learning.
I also love the fact that one of your patients heard one of my other episodes, then you reached out, and now we're talking.
For our listeners, I mentioned patients. Let's start there. Tell us a little bit about what you do.
Owen:
I'm really excited to join the podcast.
I’m a healthcare provider in Canada, and seeing patients day-to-day is one of the great joys of my career. But it's also where you start to notice some of the downstream effects of poor systems planning and healthcare decline.
Susan:
We don't have to be diplomatic on this podcast.
I've spent about 25 years near or in healthcare myself, and if everything was working well, we probably wouldn't be talking about it.
Owen:
Valid point.
I've been practicing for about six years now. Week to week, you're seeing all these people whose health is being influenced by both the urban environment and the natural environment.
A lot of what I do involves nature prescriptions and helping people reconnect with nature. That work led me down a very deep rabbit hole into urban planning and conversations with many of the major voices in the nature-health space.
The question became: How do we actually reset our systems so that what we know intuitively—that people feel better in nature—becomes integrated at a broader level?
It's not something that happens quickly.
Returning to Nature
Susan:
I can speak firsthand because we're recording this a few days after I returned from six days living on a boat and spending most of my time in nature.
The phone was basically a camera and a music device.
It was restorative in so many ways, but six days wasn't enough. It just wasn't enough.
Owen:
It never is.
When you're working with patients and trying to prescribe nature, one of the first questions becomes: How much time do people actually have?
People are busy. They work all day. They come home. They make dinner. Maybe they're driving kids to activities.
Then suddenly it's bedtime and they realize they weren't really outside at all that day except maybe walking from the house to the car.
And then we wonder why everyone feels stressed all the time.
What Is Naturopathic Medicine?
Susan:
Let's go back to the beginning because some listeners may not be familiar with naturopathic medicine.
Can you explain what that means?
Owen:
My journey into naturopathic medicine was a bit unusual.
I used to work in clinical research at our local pediatric hospital. I worked in neurology and later in gastroenterology after loved ones of mine were diagnosed with gastrointestinal conditions.
That was where I first saw the gut-brain connection.
Originally, I was on the path toward becoming a medical doctor, but working in the hospital system showed me some of the gaps.
We've built healthcare systems that spend billions treating downstream disease while underinvesting in upstream interventions like access to nature.
I often joke that if nature were a drug, it would be the most cost-effective public health intervention we've ever seen.
At that point I realized I didn't want to practice in a system where the average appointment might be five to seven minutes.
In naturopathic medicine, I get an hour to an hour and a half with new patients.
We're focused on prevention. We're looking at data. We review blood work, nutrient levels, deficiencies, and the factors contributing to fatigue, cognitive challenges, or other symptoms.
One of the principles that drew me to the profession is vis medicatrix naturae—the healing power of nature.
That idea always resonated with me because I knew from personal experience how much better I felt when I spent time outdoors.
I wanted to bring that into my work with patients.
Susan:
Can you say that Latin phrase again?
Owen:
Vis medicatrix naturae.
The healing power of nature.
Susan:
Is that part of all healthcare provider oaths?
Owen:
No, specifically naturopathic medicine.
It's the idea that the body wants to heal. Biologically, we are designed toward wellness.
If we can remove barriers and obstacles, the body often has an incredible capacity to recover.
Training and Scope of Practice
Susan:
Can you talk a little bit about the training differences between a naturopath and a traditional physician?
Owen:
The first two years are very similar to other medical training programs.
We study immunology, virology, anatomy, physiology, and complete cadaver labs.
Those experiences are incredibly humbling because you realize how much we all share beneath the surface.
In the third and fourth years, training becomes more clinical.
By fourth year you're a clinical intern seeing patients under supervision.
After graduation, you still need to pass licensing exams before practicing.
Depending on whether you complete a residency, the process can take eight to ten years.
Susan:
Is there a difference between naturopathic medicine in Canada and the United States?
Owen:
There can be.
The regulatory framework varies by region, although there's a strong push toward standardization.
For example, naturopaths on Canada's West Coast generally have a broader prescribing scope than I do. Some can prescribe antibiotics and perform additional procedures.
The benefit is that they're integrated more fully into primary care systems.
That reduces pressure on traditional healthcare systems at a time when many communities face physician shortages and funding constraints.
The Healthcare Team Model
Susan:
That's interesting because I would have assumed naturopaths function as primary care providers.
Owen:
Many patients have both a family doctor and a naturopath.
Their family doctor often handles acute concerns, while I focus on prevention and long-term wellbeing.
We'll review blood work, evaluate nutrient status, discuss lifestyle factors, and use objective data to guide decisions.
I'm admittedly a bit obsessive about data myself.
Every year I run a comprehensive panel and track everything in a spreadsheet so I can compare trends over time and make informed decisions about my own health.
Susan:
I love that.
And since you brought up systems earlier, let's go there.
I think in ecosystems, communities, and connections.
When you think about systems today, what's the topic that's most alive for you?
Owen:
Urban planning.
Without question.
And the funny thing is I have no formal background in urban planning.
But over time I've become convinced that the way we've built our cities is making people sick.
Susan:Urban planning?
Owen:
Without question.
The funny thing is, I have no formal background in urban planning. But over time, I've become convinced that the way we've built our cities is making people sick.
There are all these terms now—shifting baseline syndrome, nature deficit disorder, and others—that help explain what we're experiencing. At their core, they're describing the same thing: we're increasingly disconnected from nature.
My deep dive actually led me into the work of urbanists and former traffic engineers.
People like Charles Marohn, who openly talks about how the transportation systems he was trained to build prioritized speed and flow, only for him to later realize how unsafe and unsustainable those systems could be for communities.
You have urban designers like Jeff Speck, who points out that we didn't accidentally lose walkability. We systematically designed it out over decades of planning decisions.
Then there are policy experts like Donald Shoup, who spent years trying to undo things like minimum parking requirements that seemed logical at the time but ended up shaping entire cities around cars.
What excites me now is that we have much better data.
The planners of the past were working with the best information they had. But now we understand far more about the health impacts of green space, access to nature, and environmental design.
The challenge is putting that knowledge into action.
Making the Economic Case for Nature
Susan:
My "what's in it for me?" brain is coming up.
I live in Metro Detroit. We love our cars. We have pavement. We have highways. We were designed around transportation.
I can absolutely see what you're describing, but if I'm a city planner looking at a long list of problems and a limited budget, why should I prioritize nature?
Make the case.
Owen:
Your timing is impeccable because I actually drafted a letter about this recently.
I was reviewing our city's budget and looking at how much money is spent mowing grass.
It was staggering.
Nearly a hundred million dollars.
Susan:
In one city?
Owen:
In one city.
And I found myself thinking: What if we redirected even ten percent of that budget toward nature-based design?
At the same time, our city announced plans to plant seventeen trees.
Seventeen.
I'll take any progress, but obviously we need much more than that.
The challenge is that most conversations about nature still treat parks and green spaces as cost centers.
They're viewed as things we build and maintain.
But what we're beginning to understand is that they function much more like health assets.
They generate returns.
They improve population health, resilience, and even economic productivity.
For example, we know that a mature tree in a dense urban environment can generate well over one hundred thousand dollars in health value over its lifetime.
Not because the tree itself is worth that amount, but because of all the people it's quietly supporting.
It's reducing urban heat.
It's improving air quality.
It's lowering cooling costs.
It's creating healthier environments.
And what's especially important is that trees often have the greatest impact in neighborhoods that have the least access to nature.
From an equity perspective, that becomes incredibly powerful.
You can identify the areas that need the investment most and direct resources where they'll produce the greatest health return.
Lawns, Fireflies, and Rewilding
Susan:
When you mentioned mowing, I thought you were going to say we should naturalize everything and bring it back to prairie.
Although then my mind immediately went to leaves and leaf blowers and noise pollution and all of that.
I may be rambling.
Owen:
I'm exactly the same way.
If I lived alone and had sole decision-making authority over our property, I'd probably rip up every bit of lawn and replace it with low-maintenance native pollinator species.
This weekend I was actually removing an invasive species from our garden—something I planted years ago because I thought it was beautiful.
Now I know better.
I've become much more interested in restoring native ecosystems.
One of my favorite examples is that last year we decided to leave the leaves.
And for the first time in years, we had fireflies.
Susan:
Yay!
Owen:
Because we didn't disturb them.
That experience sent me even deeper down the path of trying to re-naturalize our space.
And the interesting thing is that we would actually see those improvements reflected in Nature Score.
As tree canopy increases and biodiversity improves, health outcomes improve as well.
People simply feel better.
There was even a fascinating study where researchers tracked people's eye movements while they walked to work.
One group walked through predominantly urban environments. The other walked through greener environments.
The people walking through greener environments spent significantly more time visually engaging with natural elements.
Even more interesting, they arrived at work reporting more positive emotions and less anxiety.
The people walking through highly urban environments reported more negative affect.
We know that humans can distinguish more shades of green than any other color.
We know green environments are restorative.
So now we need to start quantifying and communicating those benefits in ways decision-makers can understand.
The Route We Choose
Susan:
That's fascinating because I actually have two routes I can take when I drive to the office.
One is mostly highway.
The other cuts through neighborhoods and takes a little longer.
I always choose the neighborhood route.
Now I'm wondering if my body already knew something my brain hadn't fully articulated.
Owen:
Probably.
The highway is mostly stress and gray infrastructure.
The neighborhood route likely offers more trees, more variety, more life.
Our bodies notice those things, even when we're not consciously thinking about them.
Introducing NatureQuant
Susan:
Let's talk about NatureQuant.
You mentioned Nature Score earlier. How does all of this connect?
Owen:
NatureQuant is really about quantifying nature exposure and environmental health.
Nature Score was one of the original tools.
It combines around thirty different environmental datasets.
Things like:
UV exposure
Air pollution
Noise pollution
Impervious surfaces
Tree canopy
Biodiversity indicators
We're continually improving it.
The goal is to create a single score that helps people understand the quality of their environmental surroundings without needing to become experts in dozens of different environmental metrics.
Because if I sit down with a patient and start talking about UV exposure, air pollution, noise pollution, biodiversity, and urban planning all at once, they're probably going to tune out.
But if I can explain that they live in a nature-deficient neighborhood—and that this affects mental health, cardiovascular health, respiratory health, and longevity—that becomes actionable.
Nature Score helps translate complexity into something people can understand.
Susan:So with NatureQuant, who's using it besides you? I can see how it fits into your practice, but how else are people using it?
Owen:
There are a number of different applications.
A lot of academic researchers are using it, which is exciting because the publications coming out help validate nature exposure as a public health intervention.
But it goes beyond healthcare.
In real estate analytics, for example, greener neighborhoods often carry a housing premium. If we can invest in lower-nature neighborhoods and improve access to green space, we're improving health outcomes while strengthening communities.
We're also working with organizations that use wearable technology.
One of the things we've noticed is that people living in greener areas tend to have better sleep data.
When you control for various factors and still see that relationship, it becomes really interesting.
If investing in nature improves sleep, the implications are enormous because people who sleep well tend to be healthier, happier, and more resilient.
We also work with insurance companies.
Insurers recognize that people living in greener areas often have fewer healthcare claims.
So if they invest in greening initiatives, everyone benefits.
People become healthier, communities improve, and insurers see fewer claims.
It's one of those rare situations where everybody wins.
And there's another interesting finding: people spend more money at local businesses in greener areas.
Nature supports local economies.
Windows, Light, and Productivity
Susan:
When I think about nature access, one of the toughest challenges seems like dense urban environments.
Do you have a favorite example of where introducing nature made a meaningful difference?
Owen:
One of my favorite studies looked at a call center.
Researchers found that employees who had access to windows and views of nature handled a higher volume of calls and performed better overall.
The company decided to invest in more windows and improve access to natural views throughout the workplace.
It was a significant investment.
But the results were remarkable.
Employees were healthier, productivity increased, and the organization recovered its investment in a matter of months.
What changed?
People had natural light.
They had visual access to the natural world.
Instead of working in a dark cubicle, they were working in an environment that felt more human.
We see similar findings elsewhere.
If you place a plant within a meter of someone's workspace, creativity increases.
Ideas flow more easily.
Schools are beginning to embrace this as well.
Some districts are removing pavement and reintroducing trees and natural spaces because they know students in greener schools perform better academically, focus more effectively, and show healthier patterns of brain development.
There really isn't a downside.
I admit I'm biased.
Susan:
You're biased, but the evidence is stacking up pretty quickly.
The Healthcare Team
Susan:
When someone chooses to work with a naturopath, they're often looking for something different.
Maybe they feel like the traditional system isn't meeting all of their needs.
What do you enjoy most about helping people integrate nature into their lives?
Owen:
One of the most encouraging things I see is that healthcare is becoming more collaborative.
I participate in an interprofessional rotation through our local Faculty of Medicine.
Medical students can spend time in my clinic during their training, and what I consistently see is a new generation of healthcare providers recognizing that none of us can do this work alone.
We're moving away from the model where a single provider tells patients what to do.
Instead, we're embracing patient-centered care.
The patient is at the center.
They may have a family doctor, a physiotherapist, a psychotherapist, a massage therapist, a social worker, and a naturopath.
Whether or not those providers ever meet, we're all part of the same team.
And that's exciting.
I receive referrals from family physicians, specialists, and even medical doctors who are patients themselves.
People increasingly recognize the value of combining perspectives.
Writing a Nature Prescription
Susan:
Tell me what happens when nature becomes part of that care plan.
Owen:
If a patient is interested, I'll actually have them pull their chair up beside me.
We'll write the prescription together.
We'll open Nature Score and look at their home environment.
We'll establish a baseline.
Then we start talking about access.
What trails are nearby?
What mobility considerations do they have?
Do they need paved paths?
Do they use a walker or wheelchair?
How do we make nature accessible and realistic?
The city I live in has an extensive trail network, so together we'll identify a few options that fit their needs.
Then we'll compare the Nature Scores.
Sometimes a patient's home environment might score around 14.
A nearby trail might score 80.
That's a dramatic difference.
Once we know what's available, we write the prescription.
In Canada, I can register that prescription through the PARX program—our national nature prescription initiative.
That allows me to provide things like provincial park passes.
I can prescribe access to the Canadian Museum of Nature.
In some cases, I can even provide a family membership that allows two adults and two children to participate together.
Because we know that once people experience nature, they often want to protect it.
Time spent in nature tends to foster more pro-environmental attitudes and behaviors.
Once you've experienced that connection, it changes you.
Susan:
Listening to this makes me think about moving to Canada.
I'm kidding.
Mostly.
But it is fascinating to hear how nature is woven into healthcare in a more intentional way.
That's one of the reasons I love this podcast.
I love learning how different systems work and seeing what's possible.
Owen:
We're all advocates in a very small niche.
We're just trying to help people experience more nature.
That's really the goal.
Susan:Earlier you mentioned shifting baseline syndrome and environmental generational amnesia. I wanted to come back to that because it's such an interesting idea.
When you think about barriers to people spending time outside, what do you think people misunderstand most?
Owen:
The biggest thing is that you don't know what you don't know.
Environmental generational amnesia and shifting baseline syndrome are two concepts that resonate deeply with me.
If you grew up in a city and your family didn't spend much time outdoors—whether because of work schedules, access, economics, or simply culture—you may never have experienced a close relationship with nature.
And if you've never experienced it, it's difficult to know what you're missing.
I think about fireflies.
I was so excited to see them in our yard last year because we left the leaves and didn't disturb their habitat.
But what if you've never really seen fireflies?
You wouldn't know what had been lost.
The same thing applies to insects on windshields.
Years ago, people would finish a drive with bugs covering the windshield.
Today, many younger people have never had that experience because insect populations have declined so dramatically.
If you've never seen it, you don't recognize its absence.
Your baseline shifts.
And that affects how people think about nature.
Someone who grew up regularly camping, hiking, or paddling may feel completely comfortable in the outdoors.
Someone who didn't have those experiences may find nature intimidating.
That uncertainty often becomes fear.
But what's important is that nature connection doesn't require a four-day wilderness trip.
Research coming out of Japan and elsewhere shows that even a two-hour walk on a simple forest trail can produce meaningful benefits.
The barrier isn't necessarily wilderness.
Often it's familiarity.
Time, Access, and Bringing Nature In
Susan:
That makes so much sense.
Owen:
I think time is one of the biggest barriers right now.
People are stressed.
Many are worried about finances, family responsibilities, and the future.
Nature can feel like one more thing to fit into an already full schedule.
But we don't always have to go somewhere.
We can bring nature in.
If you have a balcony, use it.
If you can open a window, open it.
If you can add a plant to your space, add a plant.
There are plant exchanges, community groups, volunteer organizations, and local events that make nature more accessible than people realize.
Even nature sounds and nature imagery can help.
We know from the research that exposure to natural scenes and natural sounds can improve resilience and help people manage stress.
Technology has certainly contributed to some of our challenges, but it has also made nature more accessible.
Maybe you've never visited the French Alps.
You can still experience their beauty through imagery, videos, and sound.
It's not the same as being there, but it's something.
A Prescription for Listeners
Susan:
For the people listening right now—the people who found this podcast because they're interested in nature, health, or wellbeing—what would your prescription be?
What's the baseline recommendation?
Owen:
My recommendation is simple:
Aim for 120 minutes of nature exposure each week.
Two hours.
When we look at data from NatureDose, people are spending roughly 99 percent of their time indoors.
We've all heard the old statistic that people spend about 90 percent of their time inside. It's probably even higher now.
So let's start with 120 minutes.
For my family, that means a 15- to 20-minute walk after dinner every day.
Rain or shine.
It's a non-negotiable.
We have a local park nearby, and we make sure we walk through it.
When you add those small moments together, you reach the goal.
And if getting outside feels difficult, bring nature in.
Add plants.
Visit a café with greenery.
Use a nature screensaver.
Play sounds of birds, water, or wind.
There is substantial research showing that visual and auditory exposure to nature can still provide benefits.
We don't have to be all-or-nothing about it.
Nature in Everyday Spaces
Susan:
I'm realizing that all of my screensavers are nature photographs I've taken.
Right now I have one of blue sky and blue water in Greenland.
I've got plants around me.
Maybe that's why I'm so productive.
It's all because of nature.
Owen:
Exactly.
I even use nature in my clinical practice.
I have bird sounds playing in the waiting room.
In my office, one monitor is always showing a nature scene.
Every time I meet a new patient, I tell them that if the sounds are distracting, I'll turn them off.
In all my years of practice, not a single patient has asked me to.
People always say the same thing:
"No, leave it on."
You can almost feel how much people need that connection.
Susan:
Doctors, if you're listening, turn off the news in your waiting rooms and replace it with nature imagery and nature sounds.
Your patients will love you for it, even if they don't know why.
Owen:
Reading about the world being on fire right before your appointment probably isn't helping anyone's blood pressure.
Susan:
It definitely does something to your blood pressure.
Just not in a good way.
Final Thoughts
Susan:
Before we move into the lightning round, is there anything we haven't talked about that you'd like listeners to know?
Owen:
I would just say this:
If you're working on a nature-based project that you're passionate about, reach out.
I'm a huge nerd when it comes to the economics of nature and health.
If there's a way we can help support your project, secure funding, or strengthen the case for it, I'd love to help.
At the end of the day, everyone working in this space wants the same thing.
We want more nature for people.
That's it.
We're just trying to make the world a little greener, one project at a time.
Susan:
And the beautiful thing is that there's enough nature to go around.
Everyone benefits.
Lightning Round
What natural sound do you never get tired of hearing?
Owen:
A chickadee call.
Very specific.
Susan:
I love that one.
My mom used to wake my sister and me up by saying, "Rise and shine, little chickadees."
So that bird has a special place in our family.
Sunrise, midday, dusk, or nighttime?
Owen:
Golden hour.
That transition into dusk when the light changes, the crickets start singing, and everything slows down.
Favorite natural sound besides the chickadee?
Owen:
Night crickets.
There's just something about them.
When you hear them, you know it's a warm summer evening.
What season do you feel most alive in?
Owen:
Autumn.
We're fortunate to have spectacular fall colors where I live.
The forests become absolutely alive with reds, golds, greens, and evergreens.
If my afterlife consisted entirely of autumn, I'd be perfectly happy.
The Dandelion Wish
Susan:
You have a dandelion gone to seed in your hand.
What is your wish?
Owen:
I wish we would let go of the idea that humans are separate from nature.
That nature exists only for extraction, exploitation, or ownership.
I wish more people recognized what Indigenous communities have understood for generations:
We are not separate from nature.
We are part of it.
If I could snap my fingers and everyone woke up tomorrow understanding that we're damaging our own home when we damage the natural world, I would be incredibly happy.
And despite everything, I'm hopeful.
It's easy to become cynical.
But there are people everywhere doing the work of protecting, restoring, and caring for nature.
Susan:
Hear, hear.
I share that wish with you.
Thank you so much for joining me today. This has been a wonderful conversation.
Owen:
My pleasure, Susan.
Thank you for having me.
