Episode Summary: Many of us spend years following a path that once made sense. We work hard, meet expectations, prove ourselves, and keep moving forward. Yet sometimes, despite our best efforts, we begin to feel depleted, disconnected, or stuck.

What if those moments are not signs of failure, but invitations to pay attention?

In this conversation, Cheryl reflects on several major transitions in her life and career, including a season of burnout that ultimately became a doorway to new possibilities. Together, Susan and Cheryl explore what it means to question old stories, reclaim agency, and create space for what wants to emerge next.

Show Notes

How do we know when it's time to change direction?

Susan welcomes Cheryl Thompson for a conversation about career transitions, burnout, resilience, and the power of self-awareness. Cheryl shares her remarkable journey from automotive manufacturing and engineering leadership to entrepreneurship, sound healing, and helping leaders navigate the emerging world of artificial intelligence.

Along the way, she reflects on what it was like to build a career as one of the few women in highly male-dominated environments, the lessons she learned about asking for help, and the burnout that eventually forced her to slow down and listen more closely to herself.

Together, Susan and Cheryl explore the stories we tell ourselves about success, confidence, responsibility, and identity. They discuss how journaling, coaching, nature, and intentional reflection can help us recognize when we are operating from depletion rather than possibility.

The conversation also explores a timely question: how do we remain connected to our humanity, creativity, and wellbeing in an increasingly artificial world?

At its heart, this episode is an invitation to consider where you may have more agency than you realize and what becomes possible when you give yourself permission to begin again.

Key Themes

• Burnout as a signal rather than a failure

• The stories we tell ourselves about identity and success

• Self-agency and personal responsibility

• Career reinvention and life transitions

• Asking for help and receiving support

• Nature as a source of grounding and perspective

• Living in a world shaped by both nature and artificial intelligence

• Creating space for possibility and emergence

Key Takeaways

• We often have more agency than we initially believe.

• Burnout can be an invitation to reassess what is no longer aligned.

• Asking for help is a strength, not a weakness.

• The stories we carry shape how we experience our lives and opportunities.

• Time in nature can help restore perspective, creativity, and wellbeing.

• It is never too late to change direction and begin again.

"We have more power than we think."

Connect with Cheryl

Cheryl Thompson is a leadership advisor, speaker, and AI educator who helps leaders harness the power of artificial intelligence while staying grounded in what makes us uniquely human. Her work draws on decades of leadership experience, entrepreneurship, coaching, and personal transformation.

Website:
https://www.cherylthompsonadvisory.com

LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/cherylthompson/

Resources Mentioned

• Cheryl Thompson Advisory

• Coaches Training Institute (CTI)

• Sound healing and sound bath practices

• Artificial intelligence for leadership and career development

• Grand Canyon hiking experience

Reflection Prompt

What story am I telling myself about my current situation, and what new possibilities might emerge if I questioned that story?

Prefer to read? The full transcript is below.

• Full Transcript

  Cheryl's Journey: From Manufacturing to Reinvention

  Susan:
  All right. Hi Cheryl, how are you today?

  Cheryl:
  Hi Susan, I'm great. How are you?

  Susan:
  I'm good. I'm so glad to be here. I'm excited to have this conversation because I feel like it might be a replay—and an expansion—of conversations that you and I have had over the last couple of years as we've gotten to know each other better.

  Cheryl:
  Yeah, I'm sure it will be. I love it. Ready.

  Susan:
  I love it, too.

  You and I got to know each other because of the work we do in organizational culture, but also because you completed and announced to the world that you became proficient in sound healing and facilitating sound baths. You were in the same class as one of my teachers, and when I saw your post, I reached out because I thought there was more for us to talk about.

  I'm excited to dig into all of that today.

  Cheryl:
  Such a small world, isn't it?

  Susan:
  It is a small world. The paths that need to cross often cross without us even trying, which is amazing.

  Speaking of paths, for those who don't know you, can you share your story? You can go as far back as you'd like. This podcast is about journeys, evolution, and expansion of self and experience. Where would you like to begin?

  Cheryl:
  I'm going to begin when I was eleven because that's when I first started working.

  I was highly motivated. I wanted Adidas tennis shoes and Levi's jeans, so I went door to door handing out index cards advertising my babysitting services.

  I've always been motivated.

  I graduated early from high school and immediately enrolled in community college because I wanted to get a jump start on everything. Then I got pregnant.

  At the time, I was waitressing at Big Boy and had been there for several years. My dad, who was an engineer at Ford, suggested that if I was going to be waitressing, I should apply at Ford.

  My mom drove me to the Ford World Headquarters building. I thought there was no chance they would hire me.

  I filled out an application wearing a gray suit and heels, and they asked, "Can you start right now?"

  They handed me an apron.

  I had to go back out to the car and tell my mom she'd need to pick me up later.

  I started washing dishes, then became a waitress, and eventually worked in the executive dining room. I had a front-row seat to leadership and learned early that the way people treat others tells you a lot about who they are as leaders.

  I remember serving Jesse Jackson during a Black History Month event. He looked me in the eye, asked my name, and treated me with genuine kindness. That stayed with me.

  Eventually Ford began recruiting more women and minorities into the skilled trades. I raised my hand.

  I thought I'd be making tools and dyeing them. I quickly learned that wasn't what a tool-and-die maker does.

  I was placed at the Rouge Complex and suddenly found myself in a world where I was one of very few women.

  It was a four-year apprenticeship, and during that time a superintendent pulled me aside and said, "You don't want to be wrenching on tools your whole life. Have you thought about becoming an engineer?"

  That's how I got into engineering.

  I spent thirty-one years at Ford in manufacturing engineering and operations. In many situations I was one of the few women in the room.

  I always told myself that when I retired, I wanted to do what I wanted to do—not just what I had fallen into.

  After retiring, I wanted to help women, which led me to create Kadia, the Center for Automotive Diversity, Inclusion, and Advancement.

  I also spent a few years at American Axle in prototype operations while building Kadia on the side. Eventually I couldn't do both.

  I ran Kadia for eight years. As the political environment shifted, it became harder to sustain the work. Around the same time, I became interested in AI.

  Initially I was looking at how AI could help my business, but what I realized was that someone like me—someone who wasn't deeply technical—could learn it.

  I began seeing AI as a career skill rather than a technology.

  I thought, what if we could help people who are traditionally underrepresented gain a competitive advantage through AI?

  That led me to where I am today.

  Now I work full-time through Cheryl Thompson Advisory, helping leaders harness AI in ways that support both their careers and their lives.

  Susan:
  That's a very cool story.

  There were so many opportunities along the way to either stay on a path or choose a new one.

  One thing that stands out to me is how often people feel stuck because they believe they're supposed to stay on the path they started. There's often fear around changing direction.

  Did you experience that? Was it difficult to make those shifts?

  The Stories We Tell Ourselves

  Cheryl:
  Probably a little of both.

  Early on, life taught me that it's never too late to change paths.

  Whenever I felt stuck in my career, I eventually realized I had more power than I thought.

  I believe strongly in self-agency.

  If you're unhappy, you have choices. You can stay unhappy, leave, or change your perspective.

  What I've noticed is that I don't always realize I have those choices until I've been stuck for a while.

  That's where burnout and frustration show up.

  When I finally stop and reflect, I ask myself:

  "What's really going on here?"

  "What's the story I'm telling myself?"

  That question has become a thread throughout my life.

  When I decided to close Kadia, I was heartbroken. I worried about disappointing people. I worried about commitments I had made.

  But once I had those conversations, people understood.

  The stories I was carrying weren't actually true.

  And now I'm on a new path.

  I'll probably change paths again.

  One of the things I'm most proud of is leaving a thirty-one-year corporate career and remembering that you can always begin again.

  It's never too late.

  Susan:
  I love that.

  You can always begin again.

  And the story piece resonates deeply with me.

  "What story am I telling myself?" has been one of the most important questions in my wellbeing practice for decades.

  When I'm dealing with a difficult person or a difficult situation, I ask where I can find agency.

  Often the simplest place to start is with the story I'm telling myself.

  Stress is influenced by meaning. Two people can experience the same event very differently.

  So much of our experience is shaped by the stories we create around it.

  Cheryl:
  Perspective matters.

  There are truly difficult situations in life, and we shouldn't minimize that. But sometimes we need to pause and ask ourselves what's really happening.

  That's where coaches, trusted friends, and mentors can be so helpful.

  I've worked with coaches for years.

  Whenever I get stuck, I seek out someone who can help me see what I can't see on my own.

  And honestly, don't be afraid to ask for help.
  
  Asking for Help, Burnout, and Recovery

  Susan:
  As you talk about asking for help, it brings up another thread we could spend an entire episode exploring.

  I think about broader society and how we're conditioned, especially in the United States. We're expected to be independent. We're supposed to have all the answers, make no mistakes, and figure everything out on our own.

  Of course, none of those things are actually true, but those messages are everywhere.

  I'm curious about your experience spending so much of your career in highly male-dominated environments. What comes up for you when you hear me talk about that?

  Cheryl:
  The first story that comes to mind is from my apprenticeship days.

  I was one of the few women, and I was constantly trying to prove myself.

  One day a machine went down and I was sent over to repair it. The supervisor didn't want me working on it. He was yelling at the person who sent me, saying, "I don't want her working on that machine."

  I was so determined to prove myself that instead of using the proper lifting method, I tried to lift a heavy die steel by myself.

  I heard a pop.

  I broke my hand.

  That was one of the consequences of trying so hard to prove I belonged.

  Later in my career, I had a manager who genuinely wanted to help me advance. I was filling out my Individual Development Plan and wrote that I wanted to work on my confidence.

  He told me to take it off.

  He said, "We can't let anyone know you don't feel confident."

  That was the culture I grew up in.

  Never show weakness.

  Never let anyone see uncertainty.

  Then after I retired, I went through the Coaches Training Institute leadership program.

  It was completely different from anything I'd experienced.

  No binders. No PowerPoints. Just experiential learning.

  One exercise involved navigating an obstacle course blindfolded.

  The only way through was to ask for help.

  The people who kept pushing through on their own were the last to finish.

  That experience changed something for me.

  I'm not afraid to ask for help anymore.

  But it took a long time to get there.

  Susan:
  You survived, and that builds resilience.

  One of the things I love about nature is how clearly it reminds us that independence is largely an illusion.

  There isn't a creature in nature that survives completely alone.

  Every living thing depends on relationships—whether with its environment, its community, or other species.

  Nature is interdependent.

  And yet somewhere along the way we've convinced ourselves that doing everything alone is a virtue.

  I don't think that's how we're meant to live.

  Cheryl:
  I agree.

  And one thing that helped me was realizing how much joy I get from helping other people.

  When someone asks me for help, I love being able to support them.

  So when I refuse help from others, I'm actually denying them that same experience.

  That was a powerful reframe for me.

  If anyone listening struggles with receiving help, remember that allowing someone to help you is also a gift.

  Susan:
  That's such a beautiful way to think about it.

  When we refuse support from people who care about us, we're taking away an opportunity for connection.

  When Burnout Becomes a Signal

  Susan:
  Something else we've touched on throughout this conversation is change.

  Awareness is one thing, but actually changing how we show up takes time.

  You've spoken openly about experiencing burnout.

  When you realized something needed to change, what helped you move from awareness into action?

  Cheryl:
  I experienced burnout in August of 2022.

  I'd heard people talk about burnout, but I didn't realize I was burned out until one day I was standing at the top of the stairs and honestly wondered if I had enough energy to walk down them.

  That's when I knew something was wrong.

  I felt exhausted all the time.

  Thankfully, my team stepped in and said, "We're taking everything off your plate for two weeks. Go rest."

  The first week I slept.

  A lot.

  The second week I journaled.

  I asked myself:

  What is draining my energy?

  What fills my energy back up?

  And then I started thinking about who I wanted to become.

  I do a lot of identity work.

  One practice I use is writing statements that begin with:

  "I am a woman who..."

  I am a woman who receives.

  I am a woman who asks for help.

  I am a woman who no longer needs to prove herself.

  That process helped me reconnect with myself.

  Sometimes healing begins with doing nothing.

  Then maybe it's a walk to the mailbox.

  Then maybe it's a walk around the block.

  Then maybe it's a yoga class.

  Slowly, you begin rebuilding.

  I also worked with a burnout coach.

  One of the most powerful things she taught me was that burnout often grows from resentment.

  That idea really resonated with me.

  Every morning she had me write down what I was resentful about and then release it—sometimes by burning the paper, sometimes by letting the ink run under water.

  Now resentment is one of my signals.

  When I feel it, I know something is out of alignment.

  It's a reminder to slow down and pay attention.

  Because we can't keep giving from an empty place.

  And that's exactly what was happening toward the end of my time with Kadia.

  I was giving and giving and giving.

  Eventually resentment showed me something needed to change.

  Susan:
  Thank you for sharing that.

  I think so many people have experienced some version of what you're describing.

  As you were talking, I was reflecting on times in my own life when I knew I was on the wrong path.

  Not necessarily because the work was bad, but because the energy wasn't there anymore.

  I wasn't showing up inspired.

  I wasn't showing up energized.

  And trying to manufacture that energy becomes exhausting.

  One of the biggest shifts for me involved realizing how much of my identity was wrapped up in doing.

  I had unknowingly adopted the belief:

  "I do, therefore I am."

  I do, therefore I matter.

  I do, therefore I deserve to be here.

  Peeling that apart was a long process.

  Did you ever experience something similar?

  Cheryl:
  Absolutely.

  We have to remember that we are human beings, not human doings.

  That idea resonates deeply with me.

  When you were talking about energy, I immediately thought about times in my career when I wasn't showing up with the enthusiasm I wanted to bring.

  There was one role where I stayed for about a year and a half.

  When I finally moved on, someone told me:

  "You got your personality back."

  That was a wake-up call.

  Now I pay attention to those signals.

  When everything feels heavy, when I'm dragging myself through the day, I know I need to stop and ask what's really going on.

  One of the things I love about teaching AI is that it lights me up.

  It reminds me of who I am when I'm at my best.

  I'm energized.

  I'm curious.

  I see possibilities everywhere.

  And that's where I want to stay.

  Susan:
  I think that's one reason we get along so well.

  I see possibilities everywhere too.

  It's both a gift and a challenge.

  Sometimes it means coming up with eighty-five thousand ideas at once.

  Cheryl:
  Exactly.

  And AI can make that even worse.

  You'll ask it for one thing and it immediately offers ten more possibilities.

  At first I thought, "Yes, I want all of those."

  But eventually I realized I had to get clear about who I wanted to become and what was actually aligned.

  Because I could easily go fifty different directions.

  Lately I've spent a lot of time asking:

  Who do I most want to work with?

  Who energizes me?

  Who makes the work feel meaningful?

  Those questions have become really important.

  Susan:
  Nobody's perfect.

  We're all learning as we go.

  And honestly, that's one of the gifts of being alive.
  Nature, AI, and Staying Human

  Susan:
  One of the ideas I talk about often on this podcast is that we live in three worlds.

  First, there's the natural world. We are part of nature, even though it's easy to forget that. We are as much a part of the natural world as the deer, the birds, the flowers, and the trees.

  Then there's the built world—the homes, roads, buildings, vehicles, and systems we've created.

  And increasingly, there's the artificial world. Social media, digital technology, wearable devices, and now artificial intelligence.

  We spend time in all three.

  Given your work in AI and your connection to nature, what comes up for you when you hear me describe those worlds?

  Cheryl:
  The first thing that comes up is how important it is for me to remember to spend time in nature.

  It's very easy to get carried away with AI, especially when you're first learning it. It can do so many fascinating things.

  I realized at one point that I was using all the time AI saved me to do even more work.

  My brain couldn't keep up.

  I was trying to do ten different things at once, and eventually I realized that wasn't healthy.

  Thankfully, we're moving to a place on a lake, and I make a point of spending time outside—looking at the water, sitting on the dock, simply breathing.

  Every single time it helps.

  Every single time I feel better afterward.

  Even if it's just watching the geese that insist on taking over the yard.

  Susan:
  Being nature-y.

  Cheryl:
  Exactly.

  Even in the winter, getting outside for a walk makes a difference.

  A couple of years ago I hiked the Grand Canyon, and even preparing for that experience meant spending more time outdoors.

  Over the last several years, my connection to nature has become incredibly important.

  The coaching program I mentioned earlier included a lot of time in nature.

  We meditated outdoors.

  We spent time in silence.

  We journaled.

  And when you slow down enough to really connect with nature, something shifts.

  It's hard to describe, but it changes you.

  I have to remind myself of that because AI is exciting.

  But AI doesn't have original thoughts.

  AI recognizes patterns.

  Humans are the ones with original thoughts.

  And I think nature helps us reconnect with that creativity.

  Susan:
  I completely agree.

  There's a growing body of research showing the positive impact nature has on focus, creativity, problem-solving, wellbeing, and physical health.

  Nature changes the way we think.

  Recently I spent some time with horses.

  One of the things I find fascinating is how sensitive they are to the energy of the beings around them.

  If you're anxious, they know it.

  If you're calm, they know that too.

  As I was reflecting on that experience, I found myself thinking about the difference between a horse roaming freely in a large pasture and a horse spending most of its time confined to a stall.

  Some days I feel like the horse in the stall.

  Focused.

  Productive.

  Checking boxes.

  But not necessarily living the way I was designed to live.

  Imagine what would happen if we spent just ten, twenty, or thirty minutes a day outside.

  The benefits would ripple into everything else we do.

  Cheryl:
  It's so true.

  We can actually become more productive when we make space for stillness and nature.

  The question is: why is it so hard?

  Susan:
  That's a big question.

  Part of the answer is that we've become accustomed to a different baseline.

  We slowly adapt to whatever becomes normal.

  Over time we've spent less time in nature and more time in built and artificial environments.

  Last year, while walking the Camino, I had a profound realization:

  I belong in nature.

  I'm a better human when I spend more time there.

  That's part of why this podcast exists.

  To help people remember that possibility.

  And I recognize that access to nature is a privilege for many people.

  But awareness is always the first step.

  Creating Space for Possibility

  Susan:
  Speaking of nature, one of the things you and I are doing together this fall is hosting a retreat.

  When we first started talking about it, we shared a desire to help people spend time outdoors, reconnect with themselves, and reflect on the stories shaping their lives.

  When you think about that experience, what are you hoping participants walk away with?

  Cheryl:
  First, we've found a beautiful location.

  It's definitely glamping.

  We'll be immersed in nature, but comfortably.

  What I'm most excited about is creating a space where people can slow down.

  A space where they feel safe.

  A space where they can be brave.

  A space where they can witness themselves and be witnessed by others.

  I think the world has felt chaotic for many people over the last several years.

  COVID was one turning point, but it feels like there's been one thing after another.

  Sometimes we lose touch with who we are.

  This retreat is an opportunity to reconnect.

  We'll spend time in nature.

  We'll explore the stories we're telling ourselves.

  We'll practice letting go of what no longer serves us.

  I'll be bringing my sound healing instruments, so we'll experience sound baths together.

  We'll connect with our breath.

  We'll connect with nature.

  And we'll spend time considering what wants to emerge next.

  I'm really excited about it.

  Susan:
  Me too.

  We're going to burn some things.

  We're going to teach people how to build fires.

  We'll spend meaningful time outdoors.

  And one thing I realized recently is that we'll be together for roughly three days, which happens to align with research showing measurable benefits to the immune system after extended time in nature.

  There are so many reasons to participate.

  But ultimately, what excites me most is helping people reconnect with themselves.

  Recently I attended a leadership event.

  There were great speakers and plenty of inspiring moments.

  But as I drove home, I found myself thinking about something else.

  The inspiration was valuable.

  The wisdom was valuable.

  But how powerful would it be to create a space where people could uncover the wisdom already inside them?

  Not by listening to someone on a stage.

  But by listening to themselves.

  Cheryl:
  Exactly.

  I love podcasts.

  I love audiobooks.

  I love learning.

  But lately I've been asking myself:

  What do I think?

  What wisdom already exists within me?

  What wants to emerge?

  I think we all need more of that.

  Less external input.

  More listening inward.

  And that's one of the things I'm most excited about creating together.

  A place where people can hear themselves again.

  Susan:
  Absolutely.

  And because I can never resist a good nature metaphor, I'll leave us with this:

  The acorn already holds the tree.

  The potential is already there.

  Just like the possibilities we carry within ourselves.

  Natural Favorites

  Susan:
  Before we wrap up, is there anything we didn't talk about that you hoped we would?

  Cheryl:
  No. I think we covered it. You're a great interviewer.

  Susan:
  I'll take that.

  Now it's time for a little game I like to play at the end of each episode: Natural Favorites.

  Ready?

  Cheryl:
  Ready.

  If you were an animal, what would you be?

  Cheryl:
  An elephant.

  I've always been fascinated by elephants—their strength, intelligence, and presence.

  Susan:
  A beautiful choice. Highly intelligent, highly sensitive creatures.

  Lately I've been answering that question with "horse."

  Maybe that's why I needed some horse energy recently.

  Favorite natural sound?

  Cheryl:
  Water.

  Ocean waves.

  A river flowing.

  Any kind of moving water.

  Favorite time of day to be outside?

  Cheryl:
  That's hard because I love early mornings. It feels like I'm getting away with something while everyone else is still asleep.

  But if I have to choose, it's sunset.

  I love watching the sunset.

  If you looked at my camera roll, eighty percent of it would be sunset photos.

  Every time I think, "This is the most beautiful one yet."

  Susan:
  I completely understand that.

  Last question.

  Imagine you're holding a dandelion that's gone to seed.

  You get one wish.

  What do you wish for?

  Cheryl:
  I wish people could see the power they already have within them.

  I see so many people holding themselves back and living smaller lives than they're capable of living.

  I want people to recognize their possibilities.

  To see the opportunities in front of them.

  To remember their power.

  And honestly, I want that reminder for myself too.

  Because I still get stuck sometimes.

  I still forget.

  But I want to keep remembering that there are endless possibilities.

  Susan:
  I love that.

  Thank you for making that wish for all of us.

  And thank you for spending time with me today.

  Cheryl:
  Thank you for having me, Susan. I loved it.