Walk with Braňo Kaleta: The Psychology of Awe: What Happens When We Look Up

Jul 14

Episode Summary: What happens when we simply look up?

In this conversation, psychologist and researcher Braňo Kaleta explores how cloudspotting and stargazing can help us experience awe, restore our attention, and deepen our connection with the natural world. Rather than offering complicated practices, he reminds us that wonder is often available in the sky above us—if we're willing to notice it.

Together, we explore why awe matters, what psychology is beginning to teach us about nature connectedness, and how paying attention to everyday nature can shift our perspective in meaningful ways.

Show Notes

Clouds drift overhead every day. The stars have guided humans for thousands of years. Yet many of us rarely stop long enough to notice either.

In this episode, I sit down with psychologist and PhD researcher Braňo Kaleta from the Centre for Positive Health Sciences at the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland. His research explores the emerging science of cloudspotting, stargazing, awe, and nature connectedness.

While the science of cloudspotting and stargazing is still developing, our conversation goes beyond research findings to explore something deeply human: what happens when we intentionally direct our attention toward the natural world.

We discuss Attention Restoration Theory, why awe may be one of our most overlooked psychological resources, and how simple practices like noticing clouds or seeking a dark night sky can help us reconnect with something larger than ourselves.

Throughout the conversation, Braňo offers practical invitations for listeners—from discovering what inspires awe in your own life to finding a nearby dark sky location or simply taking a few moments to look up.

If you've ever felt your world becoming smaller under the weight of daily responsibilities, this conversation is a gentle reminder that sometimes perspective begins with lifting your eyes to the sky.

Key Themes

Cloudspotting and stargazing as accessible nature practices
The psychology of awe and why it matters for wellbeing
Attention Restoration Theory and directed attention
Nature connectedness and our relationship with the natural world
Looking up as a practice of perspective
The importance of curiosity in psychological wellbeing
Finding hope through science and nature

Key Takeaways

Awe isn't reserved for extraordinary experiences—it can be found in everyday moments if we learn to notice.
Directing our attention toward nature may help restore our capacity to focus.
Nature connectedness influences how we experience the natural world and may shape our willingness to care for it.
You don't need expensive equipment or remote wilderness to begin cloudspotting or stargazing.
Asking yourself "What brings me awe?" can become a powerful practice for cultivating wellbeing.
Even winter landscapes—and winter skies—offer opportunities for connection and wonder.

"What brings you awe?"

Connect with Braňo

Braňo Kaleta is a psychologist and PhD researcher at the Centre for Positive Health Sciences at the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland. His work explores nature connectedness, positive psychology, environmental psychology, and the emerging science of cloudspotting and stargazing for health and wellbeing.

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/branislavkaleta/

Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland: https://www.rcsi.com/dublin/about/faculty-of-medicine-and-health-sciences/centre-for-positive-health-sciences

Resources Mentioned

Attention Restoration Theory
Nature Connectedness
Positive Psychology
Environmental Psychology
International Dark Sky Places (find a nearby dark sky park or reserve)
Light Pollution Maps (to locate darker skies near you)

Reflection Prompt

What brings you awe?

And when was the last time you gave yourself enough time to notice it?

Prefer to read? The full transcript is below.

Susan:
Welcome to the Rooted Podcast.
First, I want to make sure I'm pronouncing your name correctly. Is it Braňo?
Braňo Kaleta:
Yes, it's Braňo.
Susan:
Braňo—perfect. Thank you for correcting me.
I'm excited you're here. I discovered your work while attending the virtual Global Summit on Science, Nature and Health. I was immediately intrigued by the title of your presentation: The Benefits of Cloudspotting and Stargazing for Health and Wellbeing.
Given everything I explore on this podcast—and my own personal fascination with clouds and stars—I was drawn right in. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to attend your presentation, so I'm grateful you're here today and that we can use it as the starting point for our conversation.
Braňo Kaleta:
Of course. I'm very happy to share more.
Susan:
Let's start at the beginning.
How did you become interested in clouds and stars?
Braňo Kaleta:
I've been a research assistant at our center for about two and a half years, and I'm now in my first year as a PhD student.
The first project I worked on focused on urban green spaces, which is really where my journey into nature research began.
Personally, I've always loved nature. I'm from Slovakia, where we have extensive forests, and I've spent much of my life hiking in the mountains. Nature has always been part of who I am.
From that first project on urban green spaces, I moved into a larger European project studying forest therapy for adolescents. One project naturally led to another, and my interest in nature research continued to grow.
When it came time to choose a topic for my PhD, I realized I had an opportunity to study something I'd loved since childhood: stars, astronomy, and space.
My supervisors were incredibly supportive and felt the topic fit well within our research. One of them then suggested adding cloudspotting to the project.
At first, I wasn't familiar with cloudspotting as a practice, but once I started exploring it, I was fascinated. That's really how this work came together—stargazing, which had been a lifelong interest, and cloudspotting, which became a wonderful new discovery.
Susan:
I love that.
It's really all about looking up—during the day and at night.
I recently took some photographs of clouds at night with the stars visible behind them, and I found myself completely captivated.
Before we move on, I'd love for you to tell listeners a little about the center where you work. Many people won't be familiar with it.
Braňo Kaleta:
Of course.
I'm based in Dublin, Ireland, at the Centre for Positive Health Sciences at the Royal College of Surgeons in Ireland.
Our center brings together knowledge from positive psychology, lifestyle medicine, immunology, nutrition, coaching, and many other disciplines, all with the goal of supporting public health.
My own background is in psychology, neuroscience, and neuroimaging, so my work naturally evolved into psychology and public health through that lens.
It's a wonderful combination because nature has such clear implications for health and wellbeing, so it aligns perfectly with our broader mission.
Susan:
How wonderful that you get to study something like this for your PhD.
Braňo Kaleta:
I think that almost every day.
Our work also stands out because we're part of a medical university. Most PhD students around us are studying cells, working in laboratories, or researching diseases like cancer.
Then people ask me what my PhD is about, and I say, "I'm studying looking at clouds and stars."
One of the other PhD students jokingly called it an "eccentric" topic, and I've happily adopted that description ever since.
The funny thing is, I'm not the only one. We have students researching breathwork, role-playing games like Dungeons & Dragons, and many other unconventional topics that all contribute to public health in different ways.
Susan:
I prefer to think of them as unique.
When you really think about it, all of these experiences are part of our lives. If research helps us better understand how they influence our health and wellbeing, that's incredibly valuable.
I love that this kind of exploration is possible.
Braňo Kaleta:
Exactly.
And one of my favorite parts is that our work isn't just about publishing research. It's about sharing what we learn with people and finding practical ways it can improve their lives.
That interaction with people is something I enjoy much more than simply spending all my time in a laboratory.
Susan:
I completely understand.
There's actually someone near where I live who uses Dungeons & Dragons for corporate team building. It's not what we're talking about today, but it's another example of how many possibilities there still are for understanding human wellbeing.
We certainly haven't figured everything out.
Braňo Kaleta:
Exactly.

Susan:
You've shared that stars have fascinated you since childhood, and cloudspotting came later. Have you always felt connected to the night sky?
Braňo Kaleta:
Definitely to the stars.
I'd actually describe myself as a cloud convert.
Since I was a child, I've been fascinated by stars, astronomy, and space. That interest came naturally. Where I grew up in Slovakia, light pollution isn't nearly as significant as it is in many places, so seeing the stars was simply part of life. There were plenty of opportunities to experience a truly dark sky.
When I realized I could actually study stargazing as part of my psychology research—through environmental psychology—it felt incredible.
As I mentioned earlier, I have two supervisors: Professor Joanne Burke and Professor Holli-Anne Passmore. Together, we're bringing positive psychology and environmental psychology into conversation with one another.
When we were developing my PhD proposal, Professor Passmore suggested including cloudspotting. That opened an entirely new world for me.
A year and a half ago, I hardly noticed clouds. They were simply part of the background, much like they are for most people. But once I started paying attention, I realized they're always there.
Now, I'm not a meteorologist, so if I get any of this wrong, please consult your local meteorologist.
But one thing I've learned is that, during much of the day, clouds are remarkably common. And because people have historically settled near water—and water creates clouds—this isn't something unique to one culture or another. Clouds are part of everyday life almost everywhere.
That's one of the things I love most about both clouds and stars. They're deeply cross-cultural. Regardless of where we live, we all share the same sky.
Becoming interested in cloudspotting has completely changed the way I walk through the world. Now, whenever I'm outside, I have another layer of nature to notice.
And here in Ireland, we certainly have plenty of clouds.
Susan:
I love that.
Both cloudspotting and stargazing involve looking up and observing. Is paying attention part of what makes these experiences meaningful?
Braňo Kaleta:
Absolutely.
If listeners are interested in exploring this further, I'd encourage them to look into my supervisor's work on Noticing Nature Interventions.
Nature offers countless experiences. We can pay attention to scents, textures, sounds, colors, movement—there are endless ways of engaging with it.
One way to think about it is this.
You can walk through a park, complete your ten thousand steps, and leave.
Or you can walk through that same park with the intention of noticing five birds, identifying three different trees, or observing insects you've never paid attention to before.
Those are very different experiences.
In psychology, we'd say you're intentionally directing your attentional spotlight toward nature rather than simply moving through it.
That shift in attention is a big part of the magic.
There's also a growing body of research showing that people benefit from looking at fractal patterns, which occur throughout nature. Clouds happen to be beautifully fractal.
Your listeners may also be familiar with Attention Restoration Theory, one of the major theories environmental psychologists use to explain why spending time in nature benefits us.
If nature helps restore our attention, it makes sense that intentionally paying attention to nature may also be part of that process.
Susan:
For listeners who aren't familiar with Attention Restoration Theory, could you explain it?
Braňo Kaleta:
Of course.
The simplest way to describe it is that paying attention to nature helps restore our capacity for attention.
Imagine your attention as a resource.
Many activities gradually deplete that resource. Nature appears to do something different. Looking at natural environments—or even images of nature—helps replenish it rather than use it up.
That's a simple explanation, but I think it captures the core idea.
Susan:
That's fascinating.
I imagine many people assume that paying attention to anything would require energy, but what you're describing is almost the opposite.
Spending time intentionally focusing on nature can actually replenish our ability to focus on work, relationships, driving—or whatever comes next.
Braňo Kaleta:
Exactly.
There are different kinds of attention, so it's a bit more nuanced than that. But overall, yes.
There's now a substantial body of research showing that spending time with nature—whether looking at natural environments or listening to nature sounds—can improve memory, attention, and other aspects of cognition.
That's why this field has become so exciting.
Susan:
So would cloudspotting and stargazing fit within that same framework?
Braňo Kaleta:
That's a great question.
And this is where I'm going to be the boring scientist.
We don't know yet.
The research specifically looking at cloudspotting and stargazing is still in its infancy. There are only a handful of studies examining their direct benefits.
What makes the field exciting is that researchers around the world are beginning to explore these questions from many different angles.
With cloudspotting, we know clouds are naturally fractal, so it would make sense if they produced similar benefits to other natural patterns.
But the studies simply haven't been done yet.
So while the hypothesis is promising, we can't confidently say that cloudspotting or stargazing have those effects until the evidence catches up.

Susan:
That's fair. I appreciate that. Part of what we're exploring here is understanding what we know—and what we don't know yet.
Before we spoke, you mentioned that awe is an important part of both cloudspotting and stargazing.
What is awe?
Braňo Kaleta:
When we talk about awe, we're referring to the emotion—A-W-E.
Psychologists generally describe awe as having two core elements.
The first is a sense of vastness. That vastness can be physical, like standing beneath a night sky, but it can also be conceptual. It doesn't even have to involve something large. You might experience awe while watching an ant if it opens your mind to something much bigger than yourself.
The second element is encountering something that stretches beyond your current understanding—something that invites you to make sense of it.
That's a little harder to explain.
There are plenty of things that are bigger than us that we simply don't care about. Those won't necessarily inspire awe.
But when you encounter something that genuinely matters to you—something you want to understand—and it still remains just beyond your grasp, that's often where awe begins.
Rather than trying to define it perfectly, I'd say this:
You've almost certainly experienced awe before.
Many people associate it with childhood, and that makes sense. Everything is bigger than we are as children, and almost everything is beyond our understanding.
As we grow older, we understand more of the world, so we naturally experience awe less often.
But that doesn't mean it disappears.
It simply means we need to notice what still inspires it.
You mentioned earlier that clouds fascinate you. Would it be fair to say they still fill you with awe?
Susan:
Absolutely.
Braňo Kaleta:
There you go.
Awe doesn't belong only to childhood.
It's still available to us.
The question becomes: What inspires awe for you?
For some people it's nature.
For others, it might be witnessing an extraordinary act of kindness.
Some people experience awe while watching an incredible athlete perform.
Others experience it through music, art, or spiritual experiences.
Nature is probably one of the most common sources of awe, but it's certainly not the only one.
Susan:
I don't think I'd ever considered that there were different kinds of awe.
That makes complete sense.
Does experiencing awe actually influence our wellbeing?
Braňo Kaleta:
Yes.
There are many different pathways through which awe affects us, but one of the most interesting is that it makes us feel smaller.
I don't mean physically smaller.
I mean mentally.
Emotionally.
Spiritually, perhaps.
When we're confronted with something larger than ourselves—whether that's a mountain, the night sky, an extraordinary act of compassion, or remarkable human talent—we're reminded that there are bigger things happening than whatever is occupying our thoughts in that moment.
That deadline suddenly feels a little less important.
Life becomes about more than the immediate.
For me personally, stargazing is where I experience awe most strongly because it gives me perspective on both space and time.
You look up and realize the universe is unimaginably vast.
Then you remember that the light reaching your eyes tonight may have been traveling through space for hundreds—or thousands—of years.
Even talking about it now gives me chills.
That experience doesn't make me feel insignificant.
It simply reminds me that there are bigger things going on.
For me, it's deeply grounding.
It recalibrates my perspective.
I imagine people describe similar feelings after profound spiritual experiences or moments of deep reverence.
For me, that's one of awe's greatest gifts.
Susan:
I can absolutely relate to that.
As you were describing awe, I found myself thinking about my own sit spot practice.
Every morning I spend at least fifteen minutes sitting in the same place in nature.
One winter morning I had a realization I'd somehow never fully appreciated before.
Birds are outside when it's twenty-five degrees below zero.
They're outside when it's one hundred degrees.
Meanwhile, we humans struggle to step outside unless we're wearing exactly the right clothes.
It suddenly struck me how extraordinary they are.
The complexity of migration, adaptation, and survival filled me with awe.
As I listened to you, I also realized something else.
I probably wouldn't have experienced that moment if I hadn't slowed down long enough to observe.
I wasn't looking for awe.
It simply found me.
Braňo Kaleta:
Exactly.
Sometimes awe comes through realizing the incredible complexity of something.
It might be birds.
It might be time.
It might be space.
It could be biology.
I was giving a presentation recently to medical students, and we were talking about awe.
One student said the thing that inspired awe in them was mitochondria.
Most of us remember hearing that mitochondria are the powerhouse of the cell.
But this student had become fascinated by how they actually work.
That really stayed with me because it reminded me how personal awe is.
Another student talked about music.
Someone else found awe in nature.
There isn't one correct source.
That's one reason I think awe belongs in education.
We should bring awe back into learning.
Instead of asking only what students know, perhaps we should also ask what inspires them.
That's why I often encourage people to ask themselves a simple question:
What brings you awe?
If you don't know the answer, spend some time exploring.
And if you do know the answer, keep expanding your horizons.
You might discover awe somewhere you never expected.
That's something I'd encourage everyone listening to try.
Susan:
I love that question.
It's a wonderful conversation starter.
It's a beautiful question to ask around the dinner table because hearing what brings awe to someone else might help you discover new places to find it yourself.
And I especially love what you said:
Let's bring awe back.
Susan:
A big part of what we're talking about is awe in nature.
Before we recorded, you also mentioned that nature connectedness is an important part of your research. I'd love to hear what you've learned about it and why you think it matters.
Braňo Kaleta:
Nature connectedness is really about exploring the relationship between people and nature.
One of the questions researchers ask is whether people who feel more connected to nature experience it differently. Do they receive greater benefits from spending time outdoors? Or does nature benefit everyone equally, regardless of how connected they feel?
It's an interesting question.
If people who are highly connected to nature experience greater benefits, that's wonderful—but it also raises another question. What about people who don't feel connected to nature? Are they missing out?
On the other hand, if nature connectedness doesn't matter, then perhaps everyone benefits in the same way.
Most people listening to this podcast are probably already fairly connected to nature.
But think about someone in your own life who isn't.
Maybe they don't enjoy being outdoors.
Maybe they rarely spend time in nature.
Maybe they even fear it.
Would they experience nature differently than you would?
These are the kinds of questions we're trying to understand through research.
We include measures of nature connectedness in many of our studies, although I don't yet have definitive findings from our own work to share.
One way researchers think about nature connectedness is through a simple visual exercise.
Imagine two overlapping circles, like a Venn diagram.
One circle represents you.
The other represents nature.
How much do those circles overlap?
Do you see yourself as deeply intertwined with nature?
Do they overlap only a little?
Or do you see yourself as entirely separate?
It's a simple image, but it raises a profound question.
I also think it's a societal question.
Research suggests that our connection with nature has been declining since at least the Industrial Revolution.
One study looked at books, films, and songs over the past century and found that references to nature have steadily decreased.
Another traced similar patterns back into the 1800s.
Something has clearly changed.
I don't know exactly why.
Perhaps it's because we're less dependent on nature than previous generations were.
Today I can walk into a grocery store regardless of the weather.
And that's a good thing. People should have reliable access to food.
I'm certainly not suggesting we undo the progress we've made.
But perhaps we do need to find new ways of helping people reconnect with nature.
As we face climate change and other environmental challenges, we're often asking people to care deeply about something they may no longer feel connected to.
Would those conversations be different if more people genuinely experienced themselves as part of nature?
Those are the questions that interest me.
When I think about nature connectedness, I don't just think about research.
I think about society.
How do we help more people become fans of nature?
How do we help reverse that long decline in our relationship with the natural world?
Susan:
As you were talking, I found myself thinking about something we often discuss on this podcast.
We talk about nature connectedness, but I also use the language of remembering that we are nature.
Somewhere along the way, we've forgotten that.
We've come to think of ourselves as separate from nature, when in reality, we are part of it.
I was also struck by what you shared about the declining presence of nature in our language and culture.
It reminds me of something I've been exploring through the lens of what I call our three-layer existence.
We live within the natural world.
We also live in the built world—the homes, buildings, communities, and infrastructure we've created.
And increasingly, we live within an artificial world made up of digital technologies and virtual spaces.
Those layers all shape our daily lives.
The artificial world, for example, is what allows us to have this conversation across the Atlantic today.
But as you were describing that long decline in nature connectedness, I couldn't help wondering whether the pendulum has simply swung heavily toward the built and artificial worlds.
At the same time, I find hope in small things.
Lately I've noticed flowers and leaves appearing everywhere—in clothing, design, and home décor.
Sometimes I wonder if nature is quietly finding its way back into our lives.
Maybe people are searching for that connection, even if they don't fully realize it.
Braňo Kaleta:
I really like the image of the pendulum.
The best thing about a pendulum is that it swings back.
Maybe that's exactly what's happening.
Maybe we're beginning to recognize what we've lost.
I'm hopeful that nature will have its moment again.
Although, hopefully, more than just a moment.
One thing awe teaches me is to think on a much longer timescale.
Real change often takes decades.
Where I'm from in Slovakia, we have many caves.
The timescale on which caves form is almost impossible for us to comprehend.
Creating even a tiny amount of cave formation takes thousands—sometimes tens of thousands—of years.
Thinking about that reminds me that nature operates on a completely different scale than we do.
No matter what happens in our own lifetimes, those caves will continue forming.
Nature will continue.
Ultimately, we can't exist without nature.
If nature doesn't survive, neither do we.
That's how I think about it.
Susan:
I couldn't agree more.
With that in mind, what gives you hope?
Braňo Kaleta:
The scientific process can feel frustratingly slow.
Research often takes ten, fifteen, even twenty years before it influences everyday practice.
But what gives me hope is the number of people dedicating their lives to making things better.
Every day I see researchers working incredibly hard to improve health, wellbeing, and our relationship with the world around us.
That's what gives me hope.
Susan:
I love that.
It's interesting because our brains naturally tend to notice what's wrong.
But when we pause and really observe what's happening around us, we often discover signs of goodness, hope, and possibility that we might otherwise miss.
Braňo Kaleta:
Exactly.
Things take time.
They will get better—but they take time.
And I'm saying that as a twenty-seven-year-old.
Susan:
With many more years ahead of you to spend in nature.
Braňo Kaleta:
Exactly.
I mean, what's the alternative?
To spend the rest of my life believing nothing will improve?
I'd rather be hopeful than cynical.
Susan:
I think there's wisdom in that.
We've covered a lot today.
Before we move into our final segment, is there anything you were hoping we'd talk about that we haven't touched on?
Braňo Kaleta:
Actually, yes.
Since I'm on a podcast about nature, I have to say this.
Let's appreciate winter nature more.
I recently co-authored a review of reviews on nature-based interventions. Much of the research focuses on green spaces.
More recently, we've begun talking about blue spaces.
But winter landscapes receive far less attention.
Maybe we need a better name for them.
White space doesn't quite sound right.
But winter nature deserves our appreciation.
I grew up in Slovakia, where winters meant snow and mountains.
Winter landscapes can be absolutely beautiful, yet they aren't studied nearly as much because most people naturally think of green trees, flowers, and warm weather when they imagine nature.
Wherever you're listening from, if you experience winter—even if it's only occasionally—remember that it's nature too.
I love the sound of walking through fresh snow.
There's something about it that nothing else can quite replicate.
So my encouragement is simple.
Let's appreciate winter nature a little more.
Susan:
I love that.
And I'd add one more image to that.
Walking on fresh snow beneath a star-filled sky—or under a full moon—is one of the most magical experiences I know.
I'll admit, I don't naturally love the cold.
But a few years ago I realized something.
If I truly say I love nature, then I have to love more than just the comfortable parts of it.
I started telling myself that I don't actually dislike winter—I just need to dress for it.
Once I learned how to layer properly, everything changed.
Now I can enjoy being outside without feeling miserable.
It's amazing what the right clothing can do.
Braňo Kaleta:
Exactly.
That's the first step.
Natural Favorites
Susan:
To wrap up, I like to end each episode with a few rapid-fire questions that I call Natural Favorites.
There are no right or wrong answers—just a fun way for listeners to get to know you a little better.
Ready?
Braňo Kaleta:
Ready.
Susan:
What's your favorite constellation?
Braňo Kaleta:
I'd have to say Taurus.
It has deep historical connections through mythology, and it may be one of the oldest constellations we know.
The Pleiades, which sit nearby, are another favorite of mine.
Susan:
I'm a fan of both.
I didn't know about the mythology, though, so you've just sent me down another rabbit hole.
Favorite type of cloud?
Braňo Kaleta:
I'm still learning all the different cloud types.
But I'm fascinated by those blanket-like clouds made up of what look like hundreds of tiny cotton balls.
I don't remember the scientific name yet, but when I first saw photographs of them I couldn't believe clouds could look like that.
If there's a meteorologist listening, they'll probably know exactly which clouds I mean.
Susan:
I think I know the ones you're talking about.
As you're describing them, I can feel that little sense of awe we were talking about earlier.
You look at them and wonder...
How?
How does water do that?
Braňo Kaleta:
Exactly!
How does water organize itself into those shapes?
It's incredible.
Susan:
Favorite place you've ever gone stargazing?
Braňo Kaleta:
I was rafting with friends in the Czech Republic.
One night I stepped outside the tent to brush my teeth and looked up.
There was the Milky Way.
I wasn't expecting it at all.
It was one of the most beautiful skies I've ever seen.
I immediately woke everyone else up because I couldn't let them miss it.
I'd still love to visit more designated Dark Sky Places, but that remains my favorite stargazing memory.
Susan:
For anyone unfamiliar with the term, light pollution from our cities and towns makes it difficult to see the stars.
Dark Sky Parks and Dark Sky Reserves are places protected from excessive artificial light, allowing you to experience the night sky much more clearly.
It really is extraordinary.
Braňo Kaleta:
Absolutely.
I encourage everyone listening to look up where the nearest Dark Sky Park or Dark Sky Reserve is.
If there isn't one nearby, there are excellent light pollution maps online that can help you find darker skies close to home.
It's well worth the trip.
Susan:
Last question.
What's your favorite season to be outside?
Braňo Kaleta:
I probably gave that away earlier.
Winter.
Winter gets a bad reputation because it's cold and dark.
It isn't as colorful as autumn or as warm as summer.
But I've always loved it.
Especially when there's snow.
Susan:
One final bonus question.
What is the sky teaching you these days?
Braňo Kaleta:
To think long term.
To focus on the things I'm doing today that might not bear fruit tomorrow—but will matter years from now.
Susan:
I love that.
Braňo, thank you so much for spending time with me today.
This has been an awesome conversation—in every sense of the word.
I've learned so much, and I'm grateful you joined us.
Braňo Kaleta:
Thank you for inviting me.
I really enjoyed this conversation.
And thank you for asking all of my favorite questions.
Susan:
Thank you.

Susan Bailey