Episode Summary: What if nature could help us let go of old patterns, embrace our imperfections, and reconnect with who we really are?
In this episode of ROOTED, Susan talks with Dr. Charlton Hall, a licensed marriage and family therapist specializing in mindfulness-based ecotherapy, about how nature can support emotional healing, self-discovery, and personal growth. Together, they explore the power of nature's metaphors, the relationship between mindfulness and change, and what the natural world can teach us about finding wholeness in an imperfect world.
SHOW NOTES
What can a tree teach us about being human?
Quite a lot, it turns out.
In this conversation, I’m joined by Dr. Charlton Hall, a therapist whose work brings together mindfulness, ecotherapy, and a lifelong connection to the natural world.
One of the things I appreciated about our conversation is Charlton's reminder that ecotherapy isn't simply traditional talk therapy moved outdoors. It's an experiential approach that uses our relationship with nature to help us understand ourselves, recognize patterns, and explore new ways of being.
We talk about the changing seasons and what they can teach us about our own cycles of growth, loss, and renewal. We explore how nature offers metaphors for letting go, embracing change, and recognizing that imperfection is part of life.
One of my favorite moments came when we talked about trees.
A tree can lose a limb in a storm. Its branches might grow unevenly. It sheds its leaves each year. None of those things make it less of a tree.
And yet, as humans, we can be so quick to judge ourselves for our own imperfections.
Charlton introduces what he calls the perfection triad: we make a rule, we break the rule, and then we punish ourselves for breaking it. It's a simple but powerful way to recognize how we can perpetuate our own suffering.
Our conversation also wanders into the wisdom of animals, the role of imagination and play, and the ways our relationships with nature, ourselves, and each other are intertwined.
We explore the difference between constantly doing and simply being, and how mindfulness practices can help us reconnect with the present moment.
And importantly, Charlton reminds us that meaningful nature connection doesn't require access to a forest or even an outdoor space. There are opportunities to bring nature into our lives wherever we are.
At the heart of this conversation is an idea I return to often on Rooted: We are not separate from nature. We are nature.
And perhaps the natural world can help us remember that being whole doesn't require being perfect.
Key Themes
Ecotherapy beyond the outdoors: Understanding how mindfulness-based ecotherapy uses nature, sensory experiences, and metaphor to support personal growth and emotional healing.
Finding wholeness in imperfection: Exploring the perfection triad and what nature can teach us about self-acceptance.
Nature's cycles as life's metaphors: Learning from the seasons, falling leaves, and the natural processes of change and renewal.
Moving from doing to being: Using mindfulness and sensory awareness to become more present rather than constantly trying to fix or solve.
Animals, imagination, and self-discovery: Exploring how our relationships with animals and the qualities we see in them can reveal something about ourselves.
Interconnection and belonging: Remembering that our wellbeing is connected to the relationships and ecosystems of which we're a part.
Key Takeaways
Wholeness doesn't require perfection. Nature reminds us that change, loss, and imperfection are part of being alive. A tree doesn't become less whole because it loses a branch.
We can interrupt patterns of self-judgment. Recognizing when we create impossible expectations, fall short, and punish ourselves gives us an opportunity to respond differently.
Mindfulness is a practice, not a destination. We can learn to shift from constantly doing and problem-solving toward being present with our experience.
Nature offers opportunities for self-discovery. The changing seasons, the behavior of animals, and the patterns we observe in the natural world can help us reflect on our own lives.
We don't need a forest to connect with nature. Sensory awareness, natural objects, sounds, and simple moments of observation can all help us reconnect with the living world.
Our relationships are interconnected. How we relate to nature can influence how we understand ourselves, our relationships with others, and our place in the larger world.
Resources Mentioned
Reflection Prompt:
What might change if you stopped expecting yourself to be perfect and began seeing yourself as nature does — always growing, changing, and already whole?
Prefer to read? The full transcript is below.
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Walk with Charlton Hall: Finding Wholeness in an Imperfect World
Rooted: A Podcast About Nature & Wellbeing
Full Transcript (lightly edited for readability)
Susan Bailey
All right, well welcome Charlton. I'm excited to talk to you today.
Charlton Hall
Thanks for having me.
Susan Bailey
Yeah, this is this is going to be fun because a year or so ago when I really started to dig in around new and interesting things around the connection between health and well being, somewhere along the way I saw ecotherapy in the mix and I was curious. And so I'm excited to talk to somebody who spends time in that space. Now before we get into the professional piece, like I would love to just have some fun from a personal perspective. And I'm curious to know about your relationship with nature. What was it like growing up?
Charlton Hall
Sure. I am from rural South Carolina. You might be able to detect a little bit of the accent there. I grew up on a four hundred acre farm that my grandfather owned and my father also had a house there. So until I was about eleven or twelve, I lived on that farm and then we moved to the Appalachians of North Alabama and spent a lot of time spent most of my life hiking, camping, that sort of thing. So I've always had a connection to nature. And when I was in my graduate program I did a lot of research in ecotherapy and that became my calling, so to speak.
Susan Bailey
Love it. Wow. So okay. So ecotherapy's been around for a while.
Charlton Hall
for me, yes. Well and the history of ecotherapy has been around well, depends on what you're considering ecotherapy, but as a discipline has been around since the early nineteen nineties, I believe, was when the term was coined.
Susan Bailey
Mm-hmm. Okay. Yeah, 'cause it's been around since the beginning of time, otherwise.
Charlton Hall
Yes, yes, yes. If you want to get into indigenous traditions and all of that, we've we've been using the healing power of nature since we've been a species.
Susan Bailey
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's where I was going. That's where I was going. And so I'm curious when you were in grad school, was there a particular moment or experience when you thought you really stuck with you that you wanted to include and incorporate nature into your therapy approach?
Charlton Hall
Well, I'd always been interested in nature and then when I discovered that there was a thing called ecotherapy, you know, any excuse to go out into the woods what happened was my graduate school program, I went to Converse College or Converse University in South Carolina, and I was fortunate enough that particular program had a built in clinical practicum. And it was housed in an old Victorian mansion that had been converted into a clinic. So when you're trying to do your clinical hours, all the students would sign up for rooms. And of course, it was first come, first served, so it was very rare that you actually got a room. But there was a picnic table in the backyard, and so I asked my supervisor, Can I use that? And he said, Yeah, that's perfectly fine. So that was kind of My first inkling of ecotherapy we would sit out there at the picnic table and of course the family loved being outdoors instead of in an office and that sort of thing. We just had to take a little caution about privacy and all that. There it was a fenced in area, but we had to make sure that there was nobody in the backyard listening or that sort of thing. But other than that, that was kind of my first ecotherapy experiences. As a clinician anyway.
Susan Bailey
Did you notice back then that I 'cause I imagine you also had some indoor experiences as a therapist in practice, did you notice that sessions outside were different than sessions indoors?
Charlton Hall
sometimes. Of course it's like everything. No type of therapy fits everybody all the time. there were certain people that responded better to it than others. some people just you know, South Carolina is kind of hot in the summertime, so some people would complain about the temperature. Some people were complaining about the squirrels throwing acorns at them, that sort of thing. But then the kids seemed to love it more than the adults did and There were there were people that didn't respond well to the indoor stuff that did respond well to the outdoor stuff and vice versa. one of the things that I love about ecotherapy is that it can be more of an experiential type of therapy. When people think of therapy or psychotherapy, they think of talk therapy, where you're just talking about problems and talking about solutions. But there are exercises that you can do in ecotherapy that there's no talking involved. experiential therapy has this thing called a corrective emotional experience. And what that is that you can use nature symbolically as a metaphor for making change in your own life and then when you see it in that way, it becomes an experiential type of therapy that leads to those corrective emotional experiences and it can be very cathartic. I mean if you've ever just witnessed a sunrise, that's a cathartic experience. I remember First time I ever went to Key West, everybody gathers on the beach and watches the sunrise and they have they sing and, you know, just kind of have this big party every time the sun comes up. So it's a very cathartic experience and that doesn't require any talk.
Susan Bailey
Mm. Yeah, it's it's interesting. I as you were describing it, I as I've I've been a part of those celebratory sun sunrise and sunset experiences. I was actually thinking about I I taught a workshop earlier today and part of my the workshop was talking about, you know, thinking about and leaning into the idea that our lives have seasons. and what we could and what we could learn from the seasons. And when you said that I was thinking about the example I used, which is that I am a summer, a summer fan. I love summer. I love the heat, the humidity. And I used to get really frustrated with fall and dislike it and frankly resist it and wish it wasn't happening and all the things. And then god, a few years ago I started to lean into this sort of nature is my nature is teacher, nature, I am nature, we are nature. You know, and I thought, what why am I spending so much energy resisting a natural cycle that offers its own gifts? And so as you were describing, you know, using it as a model, I was thinking of that example. of, you know, seasons and cycles and how they can be so powerful if we notice them.
Charlton Hall
That's one thing we r rely on quite heavily in well what I do is mindfulness based ecotherapy. So there's six mindful skills and six ecotherapy skills. And being present in the moment is one of the skills that we talk about and nature of course facilitates that because there's lots of stuff in the moment to observe in nature. But we use the what we call the wheel of the year as a metaphor for your own Cycle and the wheel of the year basically is if you think about the solstices and the equinoxes. in the northern hemisphere at the winter solstice you have the darkest night of the year and then the shortest day of the year. And it goes all the way around to the summer solstice where you have the longest day of the year and the shortest night of the year. And then you've got the equinoxes where the night and the day are balanced equally. if you think about that in terms of a human life cycle, you know, you're born as the sun is born and then you progress around the circle and then once you get to the summer solstice part of your life, then you're going into the part where you're you know, where I'm at now. You're getting a little older, you're anticipating, you know, you're going you're not going to be around as long. You got more days behind you than you have in front of you. And what there's different things that happen in that particular cycle.
Susan Bailey
Mm, mm-hmm.
Charlton Hall
that season of your life than happen in the spring of your life. That sort of thing. And there's just one of the many metaphors that you can use, you can draw from the whole cycle of life idea. And we were talking about fall. That's that's that's my favorite season. We're kind of opposite on that. the summer's hot and sticky and I like the fall and it's cool and the leaves are falling and there's lots of colors. Yeah, yeah.
Susan Bailey
Ha. Fall has grown on me. It is
Charlton Hall
But that's a metaphor, you know, you have to shed the leaves to have change and they decay and but they feed the other things. And so that's you talk about nature's metaphor, as one of the skills and that's one of the metaphors of what leaves do you have to shed to achieve the changes that you want and what do you have to let go of. That sort of thing.
Susan Bailey
Mm-hmm. Mm. Yeah, and it seems like there's always something to let go of.
Charlton Hall
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And something else to embrace too.
Susan Bailey
There's it. Yes, that is true. That is true. I mean, just embracing letting go is a possibility, right? Well, when we think Yeah, when we think about, so you hit upon it, 'cause that was going to be one of my questions, is ecotherapy isn't just being outside, right? It's not just therapy, you know, with a clinician outdoors. Can you share a little bit more about, you know, what it What it entails. You mentioned some practices. I don't know if that's the best place to start.
Charlton Hall
Sure. Well first off let me just say that the first thing I I trained therapists in ecotherapy and the first thing they say was, I don't have access to an outdoor space. I'm in an office building and you know, we have a concrete parking lot and all that stuff. You don't have to have access to an outdoor space to do ecotherapy. number one, there's homework assignments that you can give your clients go home and go play around in the backyard and find this or whatever. number two, you can bring nature into your office by having houseplants, by having just sounds of nature. those you've th some of those sound machines have like crickets and things like that. one of the things that I do a lot, actually written a book on it, is Santray eco art therapy. And it's like San Tray therapy. But the difference is that you use natural materials like seashells, feathers, flowers, sticks, anything like that to create an experiential peace in the sand. But mindfulness based ecotherapy is a blending of mindfulness and ecotherapy. And there are six mindful skills and six ecotherapy skills. The mindful skills are what you do to be mindful and the ecotherapy skills are how you do it. So, you go out into nature and nature facilitates a mindful state and the mindful state is where the change happens. So that's it in a nutshell.
Susan Bailey
Mm. Okay. I like it. I'm interested just as I as I think about we've we're talking about mindfulness and nature change. I know I make up a story, I know personally, however, we might intro into this, but you know, observations of the world, we've we've got a lot of folks who are disconnected from themselves. we'll start there because they're probably disconnected from nature and from each other too. But let's start with self. So is this a path? ecotherapy? Does this Help facilitate that connection to self in a unique way.
Charlton Hall
Yes, we were you know, we're talking about the twelve skills. The twelfth and final skill in mindfulness based psychotherapy is living in true self. So, I I'm a Regerian, a humanist, we talk about I always use my hands. I don't the people that are listening on audio can't see my hands, but here in the present moment the you have a person that you want to be and a person that you see yourself as. And the closer together those are, the fewer problems you have because you're pretty much who you want to be. The further apart those get, the more you start asking, Well, why can't I be like that over there? And that's where you start wanting to make changes. So there's two ways to remedy that. One is to become the person that you want to be, or the other is to move the person you want to be closer to who you are now. able to see yourself that way and be accepting and okay with who you are. one of the seventh skill of mindfulness based ecotherapy is connecting and we do a lot of connecting skills connecting to nature number one then connecting to other people or other creatures I do animal assisted therapy as well and then finally connecting to yourself, your true self. person that you want to be. And of course if you have a higher power, connecting to that as well. And it could just be something as simple as nature is larger than yourself, so connecting to nature as your higher power. Or whatever you have higher power as a conceptual basis. But that's the idea, yes. We do try to the ultimate skill, all this is leading towards connecting to the person that you want to be, connecting to that true self.
Susan Bailey
Yeah, that's interesting. I'm my brain is going in many directions right now. and I'm curious what percent of people actually show up to say, I'm I'm I know that the problem is I'm disconnected from myself. or do people come in and lament and just say, gee, I wish I was different? And one of the things that you help them do is find The connection?
Charlton Hall
Yeah, we work on both ends, moving the true self closer to who they see themselves are as now and moving the person that they see themselves now as closer to the true self. We talk about one of the first exercises we do when we're creating a treatment plan or a change plan is what we conceptualize it as in mindfulness based ecotherapy, what changes are we wanting to make. I want to do this more, I want to think this more, I want to feel this more. That's where we start. And then we take that and use a list of core values. What are the core values that you that you express and that you want to express in your life? And then from then on, I don't want to oversimplify it, but just conceptually, every action, every thought, every behavior has a choice point. And the choice point there is do I make a decision to move myself closer to those true values, to connect with my true self? do I move myself further away from those core values by what I'm about to do or about to say or about to think. And so over time you it becomes living in true self. You move closer to your true self.
Susan Bailey
Mm hmm. It sounds wonderful.
Charlton Hall
Yeah, I think so. After doing it for a while. Yeah. And
Susan Bailey
It sounds wonderful. Yeah. Well, and I wonder too if people are outside and you're you're experiencing nature and you're also taking in is part of it also taking in and I'm, you know, my I'm looking up here and people can't see where I'm looking because we're not on video, but I'm I've got a window here, right? So I can see nature and I can see that the tree out there is whole and complete and yet. not perfect. and d does is that a part of being in or experiencing nature as part of the therapeutic process is seeing that modeling of imperfection and wholeness.
Charlton Hall
Yes. and that's one of the things we talk about is the perfection triad. and a lot of people get caught up in the idea of I must be perfect and I must be perfect is the perfection triad is I make the rule, I break the rule and I punish myself. I make the rule that I must be perfect, I break the rule because nobody's perfect and eventually you're going to screw up and break the rule. And then I punish myself.
Susan Bailey
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Charlton Hall
For not being perfect. I feel by blaming, shaming, or guilt tripping myself. The thing about the triad is you have three chances, three opportunities to change that. You can either n not say I must be perfect in the first place and then there's no rule to break. Or you can just not ever break the rule, which is what most people try to do. They not break the rule that I'm perfect and just try to be perfect all the time. and always
Susan Bailey
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Right, right.
Charlton Hall
Always go Dr. Phil and say, How's that working for you? And then the third one is just not punish yourself. Okay, I'm a human being, I'm going to make mistakes. If I didn't make a mistake, I would have already known what I was doing. I mistakes are learning opportunities. But then the way that relates to nature is that if a limb falls off a tree, does that mean it's not a perfect tree anymore? It's a natural process of being a tree. nature prunes trees. Ice storms come up and the limbs fall off or the wind blows the limb off. Doesn't mean that the tree's not perfect. It just means that it's going through a process of change, process of growth, process of letting go, letting go of those leaves that are no longer productive. That sort of thing.
Susan Bailey
Mm. Mm, I love that. So, three can you repeat the three in the tryout again?
Charlton Hall
Sure. I make the rule, I break the rule, and I punish myself. The generic template for the triads, we use a lot of triads in mindfulness based ecotherapy. But the tenip the generic template for that is what is the problem, why is this a problem, and how is the problem maintained. In other words, what solutions are we attempting for the problem that are contributing to the problem instead of f solving it? The old definition of insanity doing the same thing the same way and expecting things to change. So if you if you lay over Yeah.
Susan Bailey
Mm. Mm-hmm. Uh-huh.
Charlton Hall
If you overlay that with the perfection triad, what is the problem? I make the rule. Why is this a problem? I break the rule. How is the problem maintained? I punish myself.
Susan Bailey
Hmm. Ha. Wow, that is so powerful. That's so powerful. And then does mindful the practice, because mindfulness is a practice. Does the mindfulness practice help you return to that and stay grounded in that the opportunity the triad offers to understand the stories you're telling?
Charlton Hall
continues the problem solved. Yes, yes. Mm-hmm. if you I know we're not doing video, if you see behind me all my guitars, I'm a musician. I didn't I didn't pick up the guitar one day and just start playing. I had to learn chords and spend years and years of practice before I could play what I considered an acceptable tune. Mindfulness is an opportunity to practice. we've lived our whole lives up to this point one way.
Susan Bailey
I can.
Charlton Hall
And mindfulness is an opportunity to learn another way, but that doesn't mean that you're going to be able to just do it instantaneously. You're not going to be able to play the guitar the first time you pick it up, you're not going to be able to get everything quote unquote right mindfully until you're able to practice. So it's it's a it's a an ability to practice. We talk about leaving doing mode and entering into being mode. And doing mode is that problem solve. I need to do this thing to fix this problem. Being mode is just sitting there and accepting, okay, right now, just for this moment, I don't have to do anything about this problem. I can just be in the moment. That's generally how we conceptualize that.
Susan Bailey
Yeah. I like that nice r general reminder that practice is has a role in how we show up, whether we practice it intentionally or not is a whole other story. Right? The thing the things we do accumulate to who we are.
Charlton Hall
Mm. Yeah. And one part of mindfulness too is being nonjudgmental. And that also means being non judgmental with yourself, giving yourself the time and the patience and the grace to do what you need to do. or not to do what you need to do. As the case may be.
Susan Bailey
Yeah, yes. Yes, Grace. I was I was yes, I was emphasizing Grace today when I was teaching the workshop. And the other thing that popped in my head is you were talking about practice and you were talking about presence and opportunity. I was thinking about just as a because I do a lot of work in behavior change and I was thinking about I I this past Saturday we made the very difficult decision to put our dog down. And it's been a week. she was my coworker. Normally you would see her behind me. I don't have guitars. I would have our my dog back there. And one of the things that one of the mindful notif noticing for me is that at the end of the day when I'd be done here at my workstation I would take my glasses off and when I would put the glass take the glasses off they would you know enclose the arms they would make a click sound and I have all week because the next thing in inevitably after the click of my glasses was Coco running in and ready because we're we're going for a walk. The day is over it's time for a walk. And I just realized as you were talking about the habits and practice that there's a beautiful opportunity for me to turn this habit that was a shared habit with a human that's no or human, a being that's no longer with me, into a mindfulness practice, an opportunity to say whatever I want to say. If, you know, it I'm I miss the dog, but I get to I get to go for a walk. outside right now, right? It was just that just hit me and it gave me some comfort as I was thinking about it.
Charlton Hall
that can be a part of the mindful practice as well. taking the memory of your dog with you as you go for a walk. That's animal assistant therapy kind of falls under the umbrella of ecotherapy and that's using animals as a way to facilitate therapeutic interventions. And I'm going to give away a trade secret here. I do yeah
Susan Bailey
Okay, I'll take it.
Charlton Hall
I do ecotherapy online now because, you know, since COVID everything kind of shifted from having an office to doing a lot of it online. And so that means that I see clients in their homes and they'll have dogs or cats doing things in the background. And for the audience members that aren't familiar, there's a thing called mirror neurons. And mirror neurons are a part of our brain that responds to other people. So, There's a there's a very old experiment called the still face experiment where a mother they would have a mother look at their infant child and the child googles and c and purrs and makes all those engaged noises. And then they would have the mother just stop making any facial expressions for thirty seconds. And the longer that she did that, the more distressed the child got because those mirror neurons were not being fed anymore. Animals do that too. So I'm sitting here talking to somebody and they're they're getting stressed out. The cat hops up on the back of the couch and starts licking their head or head biting them or rubbing up against or the dog just kind of the ears perk up and that sort of thing. So if you have pets and you're doing therapy online, be aware that your therapist is possibly reading your animals as well.
Susan Bailey
that's it is a trade secret, I see. Yeah, because I was thinking about how she was really extraordinary at, you know, I could be on the other side of the house, in, you know, just falling into meditation, or I do some Reiki and energy work and she would she would come and hunt me down because she could f it was like she could feel the energy flowing from across the house. It's the extraordinary sensitivity and I know horses have that. I hadn't I hadn't yeah drawn that connection.
Charlton Hall
Yeah, yeah. That was That was my very first introduction to animal assisted therapy. I became a Gala certified. Gala is one of those equine therapy organizations. I was working in an inpatient drug and alcohol treatment facility and they had equine therapy. And just the horse's limbic system is five times larger than a human's. They're herd animals and they are extraordinarily sensitive to what everybody else in the herd is doing so if one a predator starts chasing one of them, they're all instantaneously aware of it because they're huge limbic systems. So that makes them excellent for facilitating human emotions as well. One of the things that they would do is a a person would stand there and then they would bring the horse up to them and then kind of ninety degrees to them so that the horse's head was right there in front of them. And then the therapist would ask them questions about whatever it was they were dealing with. And if they were clear and being honest with themselves, then the horse would nuzzle them. If they were blocking or denying or whatever, the horse would start shaking its head and walk away from them. And it was amazing how often that was accurate. and it was a very powerful non nonverbal way of doing therapy.
Susan Bailey
Wow. Huh. Now I'm wondering, like I was like, hmm, I wonder, well, I won't know, but I wonder if on days where I was most, I guess it would make sense if I was really calm enough to meditate and relax, that the dog, of course, was eager to be in my space and relaxed in my space versus the alternative. That is so fascinating. Huh. Interesting. Inter interesting. I would as I as we're talking about this, I'm wondering about you know, they pet therapy, right? Like is this is different. We're talking about something different, right?
Charlton Hall
Well, it depends on what you mean by pet therapy. I've I've heard it both ways and what I'm th there's there are actually therapists who will do therapy with your cat or your dog. But it's by therapy you mean not like doing animal assisted therapy or the therapy animals or what are the what do they call it?
Susan Bailey
Mm, emotional support animals, yeah.
Charlton Hall
Emotional support animals. Yeah, yeah. Now, there's a difference between an emotional support animal and a therapy animal. And emotional support animals don't maybe not have any training. They might have training but they might not. But if it's a specific like I've had clients in the past that had seizures and the dog would be able to let them know that they're about to have a seizure because they're sensitive to the point that okay, here's the signs that this person's about to have a seizure and then the dog would let them know so they could go to a safe place and, you know, if they were driving a car or if they were, you know, doing something like cooking or something, the dog would let them know that they were about to have a seizure so that they could do that. That dog had training. Some emotional support animals might not be. They might just be there that as, you know, some a way of affection, that sort of thing. So difference there is just having the training. And there's multiple organizations that will train your dog or your animal. It doesn't have to be a dog. I've actually seen emotional squ igu iguanas or trained iguanas that they use for that. So yeah.
Susan Bailey
Possibilities. I is there such a thing as emotional support trees? Because I've got these two white pines these days that I'm spending a lot of time with and they really seem to be there for me. is that a thing? Haha.
Charlton Hall
Yeah. We actually have an exercise. now this is kind of this is a little involved, so bear with me, but and again this doesn't mean when we're talking about this it doesn't mean that you have to believe any of this. That this is more of a therapeutic tool. It's like a I compare it to like an inkblot test. There's no there in the inkblot test, it's whatever you're projecting onto it. what see in the image. but there's a thing called the Celtic tree horoscope and that goes by you have a birth tree at like I'm an elder tree in my birth. And whatever moon you were born under in the Celtic horoscope, that is the tree that you're assigned to. So one of the exercises that we do is okay here's your birth tree. Develop a relationship with that tree. Go to it, talk to it. What can you learn from it? If that tree was going to communicate with you, what could it tell you? And the idea behind that is getting past no past verbal communication. Seventy to ninety percent of communication is not verbal. it's picking up on you know, auditory c cues, body language, things like that. So if you were looking at a tree, what kind of body language would it have? What would it tell you? And the whole thing is that you don't have to believe that the tree is actually communicating with you. It's just all you're projecting your inner self onto the tree. So what does this tell you about yourself by how you relate to the tree? So yeah, we do have emotional support trees.
Susan Bailey
And I am resisting right now looking up what my Celtic birth I'm going to look it up afterwards and find out. Very curious.
Charlton Hall
And if you if you don't mind sharing your birthday, I could probably tell you. Christmas Day, then you're a mistletoe. That's not even a tree. Mistlet Mistletoes are healers. natural born healers. the ancient Celts called mistletoe all heal because they believed cure anything. so yeah, it's natural healer.
Susan Bailey
It is Christmas Day. Mm hmm. A mistletoe. It's not even a tree. Mm. Mm-hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hm. Wow. All right. I'll take it. I wonder all right, now I'm like 'cause as you were saying that, I was like, Do they have white pines in the Celtic region? And I was like, It probably not going to be a white pine.
Charlton Hall
that's yeah, and that depends on how in depth you want to get with it because there's a there's some trees in the Celtic alphabet or that don't don't grow like I'm in the Pacific Northwest right now. so some of those are not native here, so you have to find something that kind of is similar to that. So a white pine in the British Isles might be something like the silver what did they call it? Silver elm. Silver elm, I believe, would be.
Susan Bailey
Mm. Mm. Hm.
Charlton Hall
So yeah, you do a little substitution. And again, the whole idea we this comes up when we do groups about this. Is it the whole idea is not how accurate is I must have this exact tree. You're you're projecting your home own identity onto the tree. So it could be, you know, a broomstick over here in the corner. I can go get the mop and project onto it if you know. So but I mean it's it's it's interesting to keep it a little bit historically accurate just for the sake of, you know. you don't want to get too far away from the whole idea but this using that as a metaphor for yourself actually is what it all boils down to.
Susan Bailey
Mm, well, I'll be I'll be digging into that afterwards. because I am a huge fan of the models and metaphors that are provided in nature that help us better understand ourselves.
Charlton Hall
Yeah. Well if you don't mind me sharing one, talking about the birth tree. one of my all-time favorite metaphors, you get a branch from your birth tree. And I prefer to tell them to find one a deadfall branch instead of cutting a branch off the tree. And it becomes your bell branch. And what that is, is when you get the branch, you tie a little bell to it.
Susan Bailey
Please.
Charlton Hall
And then every time you have a significant event in your life after that, you tie another bell to it. Like I've got I I should have my bell branches over there in the corner if you were able to see video and show it to you. but so all my children's birth is on there. my marriage is on there, my graduation is on there. So there's all these bells hanging on the tree, and as you pick it up and look at it, every time you tie a bell on You're automatically reminded of all these significant events in your life. And you can shake it. And we use it as a purification ritual. And again, you don't have to believe in purification rituals. The whole idea is just this is a metaphor for something else, it's a metaphor for change. But you shake that bell branch when you're doing a purification ritual in the four directions, and the music of all those events that have happened in your life is filling the space and
Susan Bailey
Mm. Mm, that is that it gives me chills and I haven't done it. And I for those who are curious to learn more about sound and its ability to purify anything, I would encourage them to do some Googling to see the movement of sand. The videos where they show sand moving according to different instruments and voices and sounds and see the patterns they create. It's incredible.
Charlton Hall
Yeah, yeah. It's called cymatics. Cymatic injury. And that the patterns that it makes themselves, if you okay, say you're playing an A flat, yeah, on the on the way I do it, and another thing you can't see off camera here is my drum collection. But you pour some sand on the drum and then you set it on top of the speaker and it makes the shapes. And if you look at those shapes They're sacred geometry. If you look at sacred geometry, they show up in shapes. So it's kind of interesting.
Susan Bailey
ooh. Yeah, it's not kind of interesting. It's super interesting.
Charlton Hall
Yeah, yeah. And not to get too metaphysical, but if you believe in string theory, the origins of the universe and all that stuff, the universe is nothing but vibrating strings. So the entire everything that exists is music. And as a musician I like to believe that. That's a little metaphysical and getting a little off of therapy, but that's just
Susan Bailey
That's okay. I just used there is a song that's in my playlist that liter one of the lines is everything is music. And so now I'm like, what song is that? You and I was just talking today about just the miracle that is any creature that has a beating heart, but I was thinking about the humans and how we are electrical beings. I mean our hearts run on electricity, restart on electricity, and it and it's it's just extreme. Extraordinary if you pause to think about what is happening. It's incredible.
Charlton Hall
Yeah. Yeah. And I remember when I was in grad school a lot of a lot of this stuff was what they considered woo back then and now the science is demonstrating that yeah, there are things called mirror neurons and yes, your environment does impact your mind and vice versa and
Susan Bailey
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Your environment absolutely impacts your mind. So let's talk about that a little bit. you know, we, I, I talk about on this podcast that we human beings are living a three-layered existence, right? We are natural, we are natural and we are nature. We forget that often. we and we are also a very intertwined with the built world where you and I are wearing clothes, we're using microphones, right? These are tools. And then the artificial world is increasingly becoming a part of our lives. And I'm I imagine, I make up that ecotherapy is just a super powerful tech tool to help people reconnect to that original layer. Right, the natural beingness, when it can be really easy to get lost in the built and artificial.
Charlton Hall
Yeah, yeah. I mean we evolved thousands and thousands and thousands of years in nature. we've been industrialized i I mean if you want to be generous, five hundred years. so we're you know a product of the natural world, not of the built world. And one thing that I talk about with that is your environment and yourself are not separate. I'm a marriage and family therapist by training and speaking of the sorry there's a jet going overhead. I'm okay, good. speaking of the built world. but there's family systems therapy is that you are part of a system. You don't exist independently.
Susan Bailey
Yeah, I can barely hear it.
Charlton Hall
When you develop problems, behavioral problems, it's because of your interrelations with other people. People don't have problems, it's the relationship between problems between people that generates the problems. But also you're a part of an ecosystem and if you're disconnected from the ecosystem, then that generates problems as well. if you have jets flying over while you're trying to do a podcast that impacts you mental mentally. And if you think about, well, the th this several Native American wise people have said it if you pollute the stream and then drink the water you've just yourself. Pollute the air and breathe it in, you've just polluted yourself. But I think that also extends to the throwaway mentality that we have. I always use the analogy when my grandfather shaved, he had a straight razor that he shar sharpened on a on a strap. When my dad shaved, He had a a handle that the blades were disposable. You changed the blades out. When I learned to shave, and you see I don't do it anymore, but when I used to shave, the whole razor was disposable. It was a little plastic piece of crap that you shaved with and then threw it away. but we're getting increasingly throwaway in our mentality. And if you think about that extending to our relationships, do we have a throwaway mentality with our relationships? Do we cast off people because we're conditioned to the idea of, well we can always get another one. We'll buy we'll get another one. So how does that impact how we feel about the environment? Because there is no planet B, you can't throw this one away and get another one. And the same thing with people and relationships. Do we w do we treat people like they're disposable? and that's one of the things that we get into with ecotherapy too.
Susan Bailey
Hmm, I for those who are listening, that we've definitely talked about east ecosystems on the podcast, but for the person who's listening, this is your first episode, and it's been a long time since you had seventh grade science. Ecosystems are the interconnected systems that enable life, whether it's a forest that is made up of f plants and trees and other flora and living creatures, whether it be insects and birds and mammals and other creatures, right? So those ecosystems are interconnected. This is the we you know we can think of a zillion butterfly examples, the butterfly effect, right? And the one way I talk about this example in my work is that you know A g a good maple syrup farmer, if they wanted to grow a successful maple forest, they're not just going to have maple trees in that forest. They're it's going to be biodiverse, both from a plant perspective and an animal perspective. it's dependent on it. And I is as you know, we're I we are here in America. We are a society that just loves its independence. It was born on independence. We wrote a whole document about independence. And I will say that I have 20, early 20-year-olds, and two things. One, they really they are believing in re-reduce, reuse, and recycle. I'm and I Maybe I rubbed off on them, but I see their buddies who didn't who weren't raised my bee by me who are also into it. So they give me hope. the social piece is different for them. And it's and I haven't I do have hope, but it's it's different. but they want to be together now. They're, you know, they're even some of them are saying they want dumb phones and no phones. And so gratefully the younger, this younger generation of adults and even below it, but the adults are beginning to give me some hope.
Charlton Hall
Yeah. And I think it's like a pendulum and it can only swing so far in one direction before it has to start swinging back in the other direction. And I don't know when the change in the s pendulum swing is going to happen. But I think we're getting fairly close to it because there's only so much environmental damage that you can do and only so much industrialization and isolation, social isolation and you know, nature isolation that you can live with before it starts damaging you and then the pendulum has to swing back.
Susan Bailey
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so that gives me hope too. I like that. So folks who may not have access to an ecotherapist, are there practices that they could utilize that would be beneficial to them? Is there maybe one or two practices that you could share?
Charlton Hall
Yes. the number one is a thing called forest bathing, Shinrin Yoku. It originated in Japan and let me give you a little bas background and mindfulness for those who are not familiar before we start talking about what forest bathing is. One of the principles of mindfulness is that you leave doing mode and enter into being mode. You can't be present if you're in your head. And when you're in doing mode you're in your head because you're thinking about what's the next step, what's the next thing I need to do, how do I solve this problem? In being mode, you're just being there. Now people get mis they have a misconception that Being in being mode means that you're not thinking. The problem with that is telling yourself not to think is thinking. Telling yourself not to think about it is thinking about it. So it's not that you're not thinking, you're just allowing the thoughts to flow like a river. That's one of those metaphors. You're not damming up the river, you're just letting the river flow and not drowning in it. you're choosing to sit on the riverbank and watch the river flow instead of participating in it. So leaving doing mode and entering into being mode is the essence of mindfulness. You're in the present moment, and that's where the change happens. The way that you leave doing mode and enter into being mode, there's as many ways as there are human beings, but one of the easiest ways is to engage your senses. We talk about sensing mode and thinking mode. You leave thinking mode and enter into sensing mode. What do I see? What do I smell? What do I taste? What do I touch? What do I hear? And the reason for that is because it's very hard to see, hear, taste, touch, or smell anything in the past or the future. You can only do it the present moment. So if you're paying attention to your senses, you're naturally drawn into the present moment. So where is the best place for as many sensory ex sensory experiences as possible? go out into the woods and bathe in the forest.
Susan Bailey
Ha. Good point.
Charlton Hall
And when it says forest bathing, it doesn't mean you're actually, you know, bathing in the woods. It just means that the idea of bathing in the forest is to let all those sensory stimuli soak you and per permeate you. and that's why they call it forest bathing. so doing that automatically brings you out of doing mode and into being mode. And they're actually I could quote you a couple of dozen studies on that
Susan Bailey
Mm. Mm-hmm.
Charlton Hall
Just being in nature, nothing else but being in nature facilitates those mindful states. So that's the main one. there are there are many other things. Nature's metaphor is one of my favorite. Go out in the woods and find a metaphor. Well, we were talking about leaves earlier. What do I need to let go of? And that's one of the exercises. We write a problem that you need to let go of on a leaf and put it let it float downstream. so there's all these metaphors that you can use in nature as well.
Susan Bailey
Hmm. Mmm. I love that. I was thinking for those who, because you know, she's on my mind this week, but for those who think going out and experiencing nature, if you have a hard time imagining how to let your senses be a part of it, consider showing up like a dog might show up, right? They're going to be smelling, they're going to be seeing, they're going to be hearing, they're going to be. Right. So, you know, embody your favorite pop and you will be in the moment, that is for sure.
Charlton Hall
What the reason I was chuckling is one of the exercises we do is something called the coyote walk. And yeah, mindful walking is th the idea behind mindful walking is that you don't have to sit there cross legged chanting mantras to meditate. You can do be mindful while you're walking and you're paying attention to every muscle it with each step you take and all that.
Susan Bailey
Okay. Similar I imagine.
Charlton Hall
So when we do coyote walk in ecotherapy, you picture yourself as a coyote. What would I be smelling? What would I how would I be moving if I was a coyote? What would I be noticing that I wouldn't be noticing as a human? It's kind of taking that spirit animal energy into yourself and transforming yourself into a coyote just for the purpose of the for that particular meditation. And it doesn't have to be a coyote if you have another animal that you, you know, relate to, but That's why I was kind of chuckling there because it's this is kind of the similar idea. Yeah.
Susan Bailey
It's real. Yeah. Well, and it's funny, I recently was participated in an exercise where we were doing I'm I'm in I'm in training to be forest therapy guide. And our exercise was to animal embodiment exercise and I chose a bat. So I did I did it was nighttime, the bats had just come out and so
Charlton Hall
That okay.
Susan Bailey
You know, I was just being it was it was an interesting experience 'cause, you know, as a y this is we leave we left we leave that playfulness and imagination. We can leave it behind. And that was a push for me to sort of be present, let go of worrying if anybody sees me flying down the street what they think. And I certainly wasn't thinking about my problems at that point. I was thinking about well how would a bat you know, I can't quite make a bat sound to do echolocation, but you know, so it was just it got me out of my you know, the my head and into my body and senses.
Charlton Hall
Yeah. We talk about that with spirit animal exercise. Now when I say spirit animal we're we're not doing cultural appropriation. almost all indigenous peoples at one time or another had the concept of a spirit animal. My Celtic ancestors had it, my Norse ancestors had it. so it's not being disrespectful to any indigenous tradition. But the idea of spirit animals is we don't we don't put it as an actual animal spirit showing up, it's the idea of archetypal energy. Jungian archetypes, the idea behind that is well all cultures throughout history have certain archetypes that they share, like the mother. all cultures have an archetypal mother. the sage, all cultures have some idea of the wise old man who you know is the mentor. the ruler, we all have this archetypal energy about some sort of king or leader or something like that. The jester, we all have this archetype of the Joker from Batman or Loki from the Norse spiritual So the idea of archetypal energy, if you c apply that to spirit animals. I have you know, you have several spirit animals over your life if you choose. My spirit animal is bear. what is the archetypal energy of the bear? And again we're not talking about an actual bear spirit, but if you think about bears, what do you think? Well they like to hibernate. they might be chubby, they might be a little hairy, they like to go roam around in the woods and eat honey. so Yeah, and they're healers. They know all the herbs to eat to heal themselves and all that. Or you know, if there was a timid person and they took on this archetypal energy of a lion.
Susan Bailey
Yeah? They can be fierce when they need to.
Charlton Hall
Go ask for a raise. You know, I need to go talk to my boss, but I'm really afraid of conflict and I don't know how to approach it. Take in the archetypal energy of the line. Be fierce. Be courage courageous. Be confident. So that's kind of how we make use of those ideas in ecotherapy. And you're pulling in nature to do it.
Susan Bailey
Hmm, I love that. I I can think of so many applications. Wow. and I also I think about the animals that I am enamored with and I now I'm curious to know more, like what draws me in. Is it that I that I'm enamored with that animal because I'm it's mirroring something I appreciate in myself or would like to appreciate in myself.
Charlton Hall
Yeah, yeah. That's one of the things we do with the animal spirit exercise. How is this animal similar to you? What attracted you to that animal? this animal different from you? What would taking this archetypal energy into yourself change about you? And there's several more questions that go along with that, but that's that's the general direction. We go, what is the change that will happen if I use this an animal's energy?
Susan Bailey
Mm, I love it. All right. Channeling the archetypal energy. And when you say, as you were saying, I'm like I'm just like you're you're channeling the spirit of that animal. How does that animal show up in the world, right? It's it's so it's not yeah. It's a different approach to spirit. Well, we have been talking for a good length of time. Time is flying. Before I ask some just some fun, easy closing questions. I'm curious if there's anything we didn't hit upon that you think it would be helpful for the audience to hear or anything you want to share before we do a quick round.
Charlton Hall
Sure, just a couple of the takeaways. Number one, ecotherapy is more of an experiential type of therapy and it might be more useful for people who haven't responded well to traditional talk therapy. And number two, the one that I always get asked, you don't have to have access to an outdoor space to do ecotherapy. I do my ecotherapy with my patients online. I just give them homework assignments. So it's not just being outdoors, there are other things you can do.
Susan Bailey
I love that. That's a great reminder because a lot of folks listening may not have access to a beautiful forest path. so that's great to remember. All right. Well, I like to close with something I call natural favorites. It's just a fun way for folks to get to know you a little differently, maybe a little more personally. And so it's a lightning round, no right or wrong questions. Would you like to play?
Charlton Hall
Like to play? sure, yes, yes, yes. Okay.
Susan Bailey
Would you like to play? All right, great. All right, so here we go. let's see. I'm looking at my question list. How about your favorite trail or place in nature?
Charlton Hall
Favorite trail or place in nature. we lived in the Appalachians in upstate South Carolina for a while and hopefully going to be retiring there. there's a little short two and a half mile loop, I think. It's called Wildcat Wayside off of Highway Eleven, the Scenic Highway. And it's a short one mile hike in and there's a hundred and fifty foot waterfall at the end of it, and a one mile hike out. a different route so you're not walking back over the same path. You get to see different scenery. And I used to do ecotherapy groups out there.
Susan Bailey
Okay. Huh. All right. Well, I'm headed to North Carolina and in March. Maybe I'll get down to South Carolina too. Okay, great. Great. I love it. well, we talked about a lot of different nature metaphors. Is there one nature teaching or metaphor that we didn't hit on that's a favorite of yours?
Charlton Hall
It's an Echo Valley. I can I can give you directions. Cleveland, South Carolina. let's see. That's had to think about that one. well the sand tray stuff. I really like the sand tray stuff and the nature metaphors there. it's kind of based on motivational interviewing and what I mean by that is that instead of the therapist projecting their own stuff onto the client, the client creates something in the sand tray that reflects their inner state and their metaphor. So it's not the therapist imposing a metaphor. It's the client or the patient creating their own metaphor. And the th they interpret it, the therapist doesn't interpret it. They tell you what it means.
Susan Bailey
brilliant. I love that because as someone who is experienced with therapy personally, sometimes it's hard to put words to your feeling, but if you can sort of tangibly play with it and using nature elements, I imagine pulling it out as you describe it is pretty powerful.
Charlton Hall
And part of that too is like we were talking about doing mode versus being mode. Doing mode is being stuck in your head and thinking about things. Being is engaging your senses. And with San Trait therapy you're engaging your senses. You're not sitting there talking about it and getting stuck further in your head.
Susan Bailey
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. It's funny, I thought about it. You said it earlier and I'm saying it again, but just, you know, you know, what is it? public service announcement. We are, I was thinking we are actually called human beings. Not human doings. all right, one more just for fun.
Charlton Hall
Yes, exactly. Not a human doing, a human being. Yeah.
Susan Bailey
Favorite bird and why that one?
Charlton Hall
Favorite bird? Crows. And because number one, they're highly intelligent. They're about as smart as a five or six year old. There was a guy, there's a story about this, is a guy in New York City was trying to pay for his grad school and so he created these machines where a crow could find change and put it in the box and then it would get corn. So he paid for grad school from all the crows in New York City finding change on the ground and learning to put it in the box to get corn. So they're they're very intelligent, they're very gregarious and I have a couple that live in my tree in the backyard here, they come and talk to me every day.
Susan Bailey
Mm. that's that's really cool. I knew that story. I either didn't hear the paid for grad school part or I forgot it 'cause that's really extraordinary. it's I'm surprised more people haven't trained crows to pay for things.
Charlton Hall
Yeah. He also has a y YouTube channel and th the stuff that he's teaching those ca those crows to do is amazing.
Susan Bailey
Yeah. Wow. It's so fascinating that we digress for a moment just that, you know, you look at we look at a bird, and we think we might, one might look at all the birds and think they have similar intelligence. And they don't. They don't. We know this when we think about it a little bit further, we think, well, yes, some birds can learn to say human words and some birds can learn to find money and pay for grad school. but you don't think about that when you're really thinking about them as a group. And that's part of I would say part of the magic of nature connection and ecotherapy is you begin to develop the an appreciation for the uniqueness of everyone and everything.
Charlton Hall
Yeah, and all creatures. Yeah, yeah.
Susan Bailey
Mm-hmm. All creatures. Wow. Well, this has been an absolute delight. and yeah, thank you for spending time with us today. And I'll share links to where people can find you and connect with you and your work in the show notes. And I appreciate your time today.
Charlton Hall
Enjoyed it. Thank you for having me. Appreciate it. This has been fun.
